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The Golden Girls of Eastland: Anupam Nigam Shares His Favorite Lessons from The Facts Of Life
Melissa Roth: Weirding Way Media.
Amy Englehardt [Singing]: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!
Melissa Roth: Welcome to 80s TV Ladies, where women hold up half the sky and your favorite TV show season runs for 23 episodes. Here are your fabulous hosts, Susan Lambert Hatem and Sharon Johnson. Hello, I'm Susan and we are learning way too many facts of ife this year, the hard way.
Anupam Nigam: And I'm Sharon and we're still here and staying strong. I think it's important to be standing in conversation with joy and connection in these times of chaos.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. And I am super excited for today, Sharon. I'm so thrilled we get to interview our next guest in person in the 8TL studio, AKA my garage. I love bringing in modern television makers to talk about the 80s ladies shows that influenced them or inspired them. And today's guest is one of those.
Anupam Nigam: Oh gosh, yes. I love when we can do in person interviews and hearing stories about how those 80s shows may have influenced someone's love of TV, the world, or maybe inspired them to go to Hollywood. Or darn it, they just enjoyed the heck out of it.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Today's show will kick off a series of episodes where we're going to look at one of the longest running sitcoms and one of the few all female casts of the 80s, The Facts of Life. The show ran from August 24, 1979 to May 7, 1988 on NBC. It was a spinoff of a vastly successful comedy, Different Strokes. The Facts of Life was created by Dick Claire and Jenna McMahon, who also created It's a Living and Mama's Family.
Anupam Nigam: Facts of Life starred Charlotte Rae playing Edna Garrett, the former housekeeper for the Drummond family in Diff'rent Strokes, who became the new house mother at the Eastland School for Girls in Peekskill, New York.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And by season three, the Facts of Life is the number one comedy on NBC and number two for the network overall, beating out the show that spawned it, Diff'rent Strokes.
Anupam Nigam: The show runs for nine seasons and three TV movies-- The Facts of Goes to Paris in 1983, The Facts of Life Down Under, 1987, and The Facts of Life Reunion in 2001.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Today's guest comes to us because his partner worked with my partner. So shout out to Shireen Razack, who worked with Rich on the CW show Secret Circle.
Anupam Nigam: Anupam Nigam is a seasoned television writer and producer from New Jersey born to Indian immigrant parents. First he was certified as an EMT and then worked as a lab researcher for Johnson & Johnson. But he traded his scalpel for scripts when he was swept to Los Angeles to participate in the Warner Brothers Drama Writer's Workshop.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Anupam has written on a wide variety of shows, from comedies to dramas. He worked as a writer-producer on the popular USA show Psych for four seasons and co-ran Disney XD show Mech X4, a favorite of mine and Dash's.
Anupam Nigam: When he was little, Anupam served as co-executive producer on Shondaland's Grey's Anatomy spinoff Station 19 and the SciFi drama Defiance. He is currently co-executive producer on CBS's Fire Country.
Susan Lambert Hatem: We are so happy to have you here. Welcome to 80s TV ladies. Anupam.
Anupam Nigam: Um, thank you so much for having me.
Anupam Nigam: Thank you so much for joining us. We're gonna have a good time today, I think.
Susan Lambert Hatem: We are. I'm so glad we finally got you on the show. I remember being out at dinner with you and Shireen and chatting about 80s TV Ladies, as we do all the time, and trying to get Shireen on the show, and she was like, oh, no, you need to have An on. And then you were like, oh, yeah, I love Facts of Life.
Anupam Nigam: That's right. Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And I was like, okay.
Anupam Nigam: I thought that happened here at one of your parties. I think I was a little tipsy. But the funny thing is the fact that I was a giant Facts of Life fan was not even made aware to me until maybe four or five years ago now.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Why did you not know that?
Anupam Nigam: I just watched it. I mean, I watched it all the time, and I watched the reruns and all that, and I always loved it. But it wasn't until I was in probably the second female-driven TV show, female empowerment TV show I was on where I was in the writers room, and I was saying, you know what they did on The Facts of Life? They did this amazing episode on Facts of Life, and everyone was like, can you just tell us what one episode of the show is like? And I picked one of my favorite episodes and, like, basically narrated it to them. And they were all on the edge of their seats, too. They're like, this show sounds amazing.
Anupam Nigam: Wait a minute. They hadn't watched it?
Anupam Nigam: A lot of them had not.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, gosh. See, I'm not the only one.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, now you're trying to excuse yourself, Sharon.
Anupam Nigam: But when the showrunner of that show, she, uh, made personalized gifts for everyone. I got a TV set with the Facts of Life logo on it, uh, as a Christmas ornament.
Susan Lambert Hatem: I love that. That is Fantastic.
Anupam Nigam: My parents were born in India. They didn't have television growing up. And so I was born here in New Jersey. I feel like inside my house was like, India. Like, we ate Indian food. There was Indian art on the walls and stuff like that. My parents mostly listened to Indian music. But outside the house, of course, was New Jersey. It was America. So I was like, television was like, sort of my window into, like, this is how American families behave. This is how American families, you know, do their normal routine of their days. But it was also. I was like, oh, this is how different, forgive me, white families are. And some black families too, uh, my Indian family. We ate dinner later because my parents observed British tea time, which is at like 5:00, so they would have snacks then. And also Indians, like, we eat with our hands.You know, American families don't really do either of those things. And I would be like, oh, that's. That's interesting. They are different from me.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And where in India are your parents from?
Anupam Nigam: They're both from a state called Uttar Pradesh. My dad is from a city called Kanpur, and, uh, my mom is from a city called-- On a map it'll say Varanasi, but anyone who's from there calls it Banaras.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay.
Anupam Nigam: Why is there the difference in what it's called? Is it--
Anupam Nigam: I'm not really sure. I think that one's more colloquial. But some of, some of the differences are because of the British.
Anupam Nigam: Ah. Okay.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And so tea time, they did that in India because of British rule,
Anupam Nigam: Because of British colonialism, as far as I know, yeah.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, it makes sense. Makes perfect sense. So were there other 80s Ladies TV shows you watched at the time or--
Anupam Nigam: I feel like I was a sponge for American television. So I watched a little bit of everything. Like, I've seen, like, It's a Living. And I don't know if anyone remembers a show called She's the Sheriff. Like, I watched a little bit of.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, vaguely. Yeah, vaguely. Oh, my gosh.
Anupam Nigam: And there were also like 70s shows that bled into the 80s, like Three's Company kind of led into the—Like everything reran back then, too. It's so different from the way we watch TV now. Uh, like even when I was a kid, like Bewitched and Batman and Star Trek would rerun even 30, 40 years after they broadcast. So you could even watch shows like from the Wayback Machine.
Anupam Nigam: How did your parents feel about you watching a lot of TV? Were they okay with it?
Anupam Nigam: I think they were okay with it. Like I said, they didn't grow up with it. So it was like kind of a new thing for them, too. And I think there was a little bit of, oh, we're giving our child something we didn't have when we were growing up. But there were definitely times they'd be like, turn that off. Go do your homework, go to bed, or something like that. The thing I remember distinctly was. I don't know if anyone remembers the opening credits of LA Law.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, gosh. Yes.
Anupam Nigam: Was that a license plate would come down that said LA Law. And my dad would be like, bed. That license. I hate that license plate. Because it meant, it meant TV time was over. Because I think that was Thursday night, like, the whole, if I'm allowed to say it, Cosby Show, Family Ties, Cheers, Night Court.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.
Anupam Nigam: You know, that whole night was, like, crazy.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, that was the 10 o'clock show for a while. So did your parents put any restrictions on your TV watching as you were growing up?
Anupam Nigam: If they saw me watching, this was more movies, like, movies that aired on TV. If it was, like, too violent or there was, like, bad language or too sexual, like, my dad would, like, shut it off.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Shut it down.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah. There were also, like. Like, talk shows at the time, you know, like, that would get into, like, kind of real sexual type stuff that he would be like, turn that off. Like afternoon talk shows, you know, that he'd be like, all right, no, you're not allowed to hear this.
Susan Lambert Hatem: My mom did not want me to watch Three's Company because she felt it was too sexual. Uh, even though the whole point was that they weren't, in theory, having sex.
Anupam Nigam: The, uh, funny thing is, like, my grandmother who lived with us for a little bit, she couldn't speak that much English. But with Three's Company, if you just gave her Jack Tripper trying to get into a hammock, she was like, this is brilliant. This is the greatest thing. This thing transcends race, it transcends language.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Pratfalls and physical comedy does transcend, right?
Anupam Nigam: Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: That's why the silent film comedians are still remembered.
Anupam Nigam: My dad was in the Air Force, and so we were living over there and all the TV-- Still watched TV, but it was all in Japanese. Had no idea what they were saying. But we sort of figured it out. But there was this show on Saturday nights that was absolutely huge. And it was a lot of physical comedy. It was a lot of slapsticky stuff. You didn't need to understand what the heck they were saying to get the jokes and stuff. So, uh, yeah, that really does. Slapstick and physical comedy, I think a lot of ways really does transcend language.
Susan Lambert Hatem: It may be the only thing in the world that explains Benny Hill.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, it's true. Which my dad did find funny.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And which I always found not funny.
Anupam Nigam: A little of that went a long way for me too.
Anupam Nigam: But yeah, the other thing I'll say about my parents letting me watch stuff is I think a lot of American jokes went over their heads. Like characters could be talking about sex or drugs or something like that, and they just wouldn't have really understand the jargon and the slang and stuff like.
Susan Lambert Hatem: So you were the child of immigrants. Was that, in New Jersey, was that difficult? You were you in a community of immigrants?
Anupam Nigam: There was an Indian community nearby. So I sort of lived in both worlds. Like, you know, I had an older brother too. Any kind of weird culture shock, things we faced together. It was a little difficult at first, but like, when you're in like elementary school, you eventually just become friends with everyone and you know, like after that it just stops being weird. I kind of like, strangely feel like my house was one of the places where kids would congregate. You would think that, like, they would congregate some white kid’s house. But for some reason, like, my house was more a place where like, kids would just kind of hang out and stuff. Maybe because we had a lot of food. Indians are big on making sure people are fed. That's key. Maybe we just had a lot of snacks and stuff.
Susan Lambert Hatem: There you go. You started down the path of science and medicine, right?
Anupam Nigam: That's right.
Susan Lambert Hatem: So you started down the path of being an EMT.
Anupam Nigam: A doctor, actually.
Susan Lambert Hatem: A doctor.
Anupam Nigam: Uh, because my father is a doctor.
Anupam Nigam: He's retired now and he was a cardiologist in New Jersey. He opened a private practice in New Jersey. So I figured, oh, well, I mean, my dad seems to have. We live in a nice house, we drive okay cars, like, and you get to help people. So I figured I'll. I'll give that a shot. I was premed in college and I graduated with a degree in biology and a minor in like computer applications or something like that. And at the time a lot of people were saying, it's good to have life experience before you apply to medical school. And so that's when I got certified as an EMT. And I was actually doing lab research for Johnson and Johnson at the same time. It was doing that EMT thing that I was kind of like, I'm not sure I'm cut out for.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Was it the real life, like, blood stuff.
Anupam Nigam: Not the blood stuff. I was just like, you have to do a certain number of hours in an emergency room to get certified. And it was when I was there that I was like, I don't think I fit in here. Like, it just didn't feel intuitive to me. And like, there was even a point where, ironically, because I've worked on two firefighter shows, they brought a firefighter, uh, in with smoke inhalation and they were sort of like waving everyone over to help. And like, my instinct was to, like, run and hide. So I was just like, maybe this isn't the best, uh, the best fit for me. And the funny thing is, like, since I was premed, I had a lot of friends who ended up going to medical school. And they all said, like, you get over that. Like, that's normal. But you would have gotten over it. But I was just like, I was not sure I would.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, yeah. I thought I wanted to be a vet. And so I helped out at my family vet. He was like, come spend the day, you know, spend the week. And so I helped out and I was like, oh, I can do this, I can do this. And then there was a dog that was brought in that was very ill. In theory, I was like, okay, I understand. But then later, when I was cleaning out around the cages, uh, and they had put him down, this dog, I was like, oh, yeah, no, I'm not gonna be able to do this. This is not going to work out for Susan's heart very well.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, I can certainly understand that. At what point did you start writing?
Anupam Nigam: So I had graduated from college, I was living with my parents again. I was doing lab research for Johnson & Johnson in New Jersey. And like I said, I had always watched a ton of television and also one-hour dramas. And I had sort of always been like a TV nut job. There was just this one day. I'm a big Star Trek fan also. And there was a day that I missed an episode of the show that was on at the time was Star Voyager, and I missed an episode and I just went online to read a summary of it or something and there was a link that said script writing on this website. And I said, what? Why would a Star Trek website have this link? And I clicked on it and learned that Star Trek at the time, it's not true now, at the time, had a deal with the Writers Guild that allowed fans to submit scripts. And that's like the sort of the first flare in the air was like, oh, I should try writing television. I had sort of tried writing some comic book scripts at that time. And I sort of started trying to write a more like Kevin Smith-esque low-budget film, you know, like about like an Indian American kid. But like, when I saw that, uh, I sort of switched gears to try and write a uh, Star Trek Voyager script. And this is the thing. Ignorance was bliss. I didn't even know there were screenwriting softwares. Like I just wrote it on Microsoft Word. I used a ruler on a sample script page. Like, okay, the character names go in this far, the dialogue name goes in that far. And I sort of wrote, I wrote a Star Trek Voyager like that, sent it off. They get hundreds, maybe thousands of scripts from people. And it eventually came back to me stamp saying it was logged in the Paramount library and a very nice letter saying we're ending Star Trek Voyager this year, so we don't really need fan scripts and stuff. But thank you for your interest and blah, blah. But that's what, like what started me off is like, oh, I'm gonna try and do this.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And when you got that right back was that like-- I mean, obviously you would rather they had said, oh, I'm gonna do it.
Susan Lambert Hatem: But just getting a response, did that feel like encouragement?
Anupam Nigam: It was encouragement, actually. Like I feel like just doing lab research in New Jersey, Hollywood was this just sort of impenetrable bubble. And I didn't go to film school. You know, I went to NYU, one of the best film schools, like in the world. And I didn't take one. I took maybe one class to fulfill a requirement or something like that. I remember, like when I was at NYU, I would hear Tisch students, that's the film school for anyone who doesn't know. The Tisch students were like having an argument over what the best Madonna video was. And I was like, this is how you're spending your college money? Like, this place is expensive.
Susan Lambert Hatem: I’m going to premed!
Anupam Nigam: That's right. I'm like getting killed by organic chemistry over here and you're talking about that. And then it was years later I was like, oh, why didn't I take one class while I was there? My parents knew I was a big entertainment fan and I love movie and television. And so when I graduated from college, as a gift, they got me a subscription to Entertainment Weekly. And Entertainment Weekly ended up doing a how to break into showbiz issue. And so I read that issue like, you know, front to back in like 10 seconds it felt like. And they had a list of places you could send spec scripts. And by then I had pretty much, I think, finished a Law & Order. Specifically, Law & Order was gigantic at the time. And I was still kind of like a scientist. And Law & Order had a formula, so the scientists in me cracked the formula pretty easily.
Anupam Nigam: And that was the original Law & Ordr.
Anupam Nigam: Yes, the flagship Law & Order.
Anupam Nigam: What I call the original recipe Law & Order.
Anupam Nigam: That's right, exactly. Which is back now.
Anupam Nigam: Yes.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Is it the same recipe?
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, exactly.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah. I sent that Law & Order off to some of the contests in that thing and to online contests. And then I actually quit my research job because they wanted to promote me. I was like, unemployed, living with my parents. And like, this is not normal for an Indian kid, by the way, who went to be like premed and stuff. Like, it's like, why aren't you in medical school right now?
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And were they, were they getting nervous? Were they pressuring you?
Anupam Nigam: They weren't nervous. They weren't pressuring me. I think there was a part of them that liked having me in the house again. And then I get a, uh, booming call. One of the things I applied to was the Warner Brothers Drama Writers Workshop. I get this sort of booming call from Los Angeles from these two lovely women, uh, Debbie Perlman and Abby Finer, who were taking over the program. And they said, so you're the only person who's made it this far in our process who doesn't already live in Los Angeles. Again, I was like, ignorance is bliss. I didn't know that the majority of people that apply to these programs are like script coordinators and writers’ assistants and people who are already out here working on it. And they said, you've made it into like the semifinals, but we need to know if you'll move to Los Angeles if you'll get in. And I was like, yes, definitely, it's not a problem. And like.
Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm sitting in my parents’ room.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, exactly. And the funny thing is, I think at the time, like my high school alumni association was trying to get back in touch with me. And I didn't want them to know I was like, just still living in my hometown. So, like, make my mom answer the phone like a child. And then she was like, yeah, hello? Warner Brothers? What? And I like grabbed the phone for her. It's like, give me that.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And so they said, if you move.
Anupam Nigam: They said, uh, we just need to know if you'll move to Los Angeles and you'll get a-- For you, we'll do a phone interview. Everyone else had to interview in person. We'll do a phone interview for you and then we'll let you know what the results are. I don't remember how long it was. Maybe a week or two later they told me I was in. So yeah, I flew out to Los Angeles, uh, to be in that program. And that's when I first started trying to be a real writer.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And that was 2000?
Anupam Nigam: It was 2003.
Susan Lambert Hatem: 2003. That is amazing.
Anupam Nigam: So as someone who also was and still is an avid television watcher, it never occurred to me as I was growing up to try to write something. What was the impetus to make you kind of go, huh, I wanna try to write this?
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, I don't think I really thought about it much as a kid. I think I was like, sort of like. Like a lot of kids they say I'm just gonna do what my dad did. So I was sort of on that track for a long time. I think it was probably ‘cause premed at NYU was pretty tough. So you were studying all the time. I think it was probably after that, like again, like I said, I was always the person who knew who directed what movie, who starred in what movie, who did what episode of what television show. I was always like that person. So I already had like this, all this information soaked into my brain. And I was also, as a kid, I was one of the few people who watched reruns. Like my friends would be like, well, that already aired. I've already seen that episode of television. Like, well, what does that matter?
Anupam Nigam: I completely agree.
Anupam Nigam: And like, just watching the same thing over and over again, you start to realize like, oh, there's a structure to this.
Anupam Nigam: Never occurred to me. Honestly. Never occurred to me, at least not until much, much later, that somebody actually had to sit down and write this thing. And so, yeah, I'm fascinated by that.
Anupam Nigam: And I, I think also the Kevin Smith thing, he was from New Jersey. He didn't, I think he went to film school, but he wasn't like in the mainstream media and he just made a movie. And. And so that was like, oh, so there are ways to do this that don't involve going to film school and stuff. Like, like he put it all on his credit cards. Clerks.
Anupam Nigam: You know, and I was at NYU when it came, like it's all they were talking about.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, I was at Sundance that year.
Anupam Nigam: So like that sort of started me thinking like, oh, this is a thing that you can do without having got, or film school or living in LA already.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And so you fly out to LA because you now have a job.
Anupam Nigam: It's a fellowship, you know, uh, and they would introduce you to agents and managers and network execs and stuff like that and hopefully get you staffed.
Anupam Nigam: There wasn't a commitment to we're going to get you staffed on one of our shows kind of thing.
Anupam Nigam: Not a commitment. They were just like, we're going to try our best.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, well, it's better than.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah. I mean, for me, it was all gravy for me. I was just like, just being out here, being able to drive onto a studio lot, like, and my name is at the gate and stuff like that. Like, everything was like, awesome to me.
Susan Lambert Hatem: That is amazing. And would we say this was a diversity program?
Anupam Nigam: At the time, no.
Anupam Nigam: Uh, my class, I think, was like half people of color and half white people. And I think as it progressed, it became more and more of a diversity program.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Because somebody might be trying to shut these down, uh, right now. But the point was to find different points of view.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Right. The point was to find young people who weren't basically legacy Hollywood people to come in and start writing so that they could then write for.
Anupam Nigam: Mm-hmm.
Susan Lambert Hatem: The wide variety of audiences that are in America.
Anupam Nigam: Correct.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And I was a benefit of Title IX and diversity programs to get into USC. I imagine if I had applied 10 years earlier, they would have not been all that excited about a girl from Georgia.
Anupam Nigam: Sure.
Susan Lambert Hatem: So I'm curious what you think of that kind of program then and now.
Anupam Nigam: I think they're great if they're utilized properly. Because a lot. What a lot of, uh, a lot of networks did for a while is they would have a free staff writer position or just a historically, uh, underrepresented writer could fill that position. And so a lot of people would come out of those programs and if the show was there to nurture you and mentor you and hopefully help you move up the food chain, they're like, fantastic. I feel like I've heard every possible version of what happens to people who come out of this program. There are some shows that just see it as a free staff writer. And rather than promote that person, so they're being. The next step up is story editor. And it comes with a salary bump and all that. And rather than spend that money, they say, we'll just bring in a new free staff writer. So I think they're great at bringing in unique voices, voices with points of view that maybe showrunners don't have access to and hopefully lead to better representation of underrepresented people on television, uh, helping those characters feel authentic. So it's great in that respect. But sometimes, like.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Like everything, it sometimes is not used for what its purpose is.
Anupam Nigam: Exactly, exactly. It's almost a little, uh, like a case-by-case basis. Like, this person had a good experience, this person had a not so good experience.
Susan Lambert Hatem: But your experience was good.
Anupam Nigam: Mine was great. Mine was great. Like, like the Warner's Workshop was a, uh, huge deal for me. Like, again, like, ignorance was bliss. I didn't know what I was taking on. I didn't realize the Herculean task and the mountain I was trying to climb at this time. So I was just like, okay, let's see what happens, you know. And so again, I was like, I was lucky in that respect. And I didn't staff right out of the program. I ended up getting a job, coincidentally enough, on a show that starred Nancy McKeon, which was The Division.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Excellent.
Anupam Nigam: But then the next show I went on, I actually took a step backwards to be the medical researcher on an NBC show probably not many people remember called Medical Investigation. But when a staff writer slot opened up, it was one of those diversity slots. And since I was a person of color and I was already working on the show as a researcher, they're like, we'll give it to him. So I was very grateful for the fact that those slots existed. Like, my first job wasn't. So I got a taste of what it was like to go through the normal process. But I was also very grateful that there was another lane for me to go and, uh, go back up to staff writer.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Um, that's amazing. So that was your first? It was called Medical--
Anupam Nigam: The Division was my first.
Susan Lambert Hatem: The Division was your first, which starred--
Anupam Nigam: Which starred Nancy McKeon from Facts of Life.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anupam Nigam: It also had, believe it or not, like, Nancy McKeon was one of the A-story cops. The B-story cops were Jon Hamm and Taraji Henson.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Nice. When you got to call home and go, I have my first job, parents.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Were they happy about that?
Anupam Nigam: They were very, very happy. I think when they really got happy was when they saw my name on television. I think that was really the point where, like, oh, this all became real. Yeah, you know, uh, so that was more of a thing. And, like, they, like, would show it to friends and stuff like that. Like, anyone who came through the door had to watch my episode of The Division.
Susan Lambert Hatem: That's fantastic. Now, did you get to go to set?
Anupam Nigam: I did not get to go to set. I went to the read-through where I saw, uh, all of the actors reading the script. And I made like one sort of funny joke in it that sort of stopped the room, drags for a moment. I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. There was like a scientific thing in it. And someone's like, how do you pronounce this? I'm like, oh, it's, uh, estradiol, you know. And like, suddenly I was like a person that people ask for advice or something like that.
Susan Lambert Hatem: That premed kind of helped you out.
Anupam Nigam: It did. It's a funny thing. I. I've. It helped me out a lot. When I, uh, was lucky enough to get an agent after the Warner's Workshop-- You know when you're trying to get network execs and studio execs to meet with people, like, having a different background than their hearing, like, oh, this person went to UCLA or USC film school, and it's like, oh, no, this person didn't go to film school. They were actually premed and blah, blah, blah. That sort of like, would make people go, oh, that's interesting. Like, I'll meet with him.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, yeah, it makes you stand out. So how did you end up on Psych?
Anupam Nigam: On Psych, again I just went through kind of the routine staffing experience. I didn't really know anyone there. And I went in to meet with Steve Franks, who's the creator, Kelly Kulchak and Chris Henze, who are executive producers on the show. And I had a good meeting with them and I ended up getting the job. It was like, hopefully how staffing should work.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Absolutely. And then you were able to stay on that show for several seasons and work your way up.
Anupam Nigam: Being on that show. I was on it for four straight seasons where I was like, oh, I have a career. I have a writing career. I'm not just a person who gets writing jobs. This is a career I do now. It was a great experience because they sent me to set, which was in Vancouver. Any production experience I had, I learned mostly on that show.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And who did you love working with on Psych? Who? Some of your favorite showrunners or writers or.
Anupam Nigam: Everyone there was great. I have to say, it was a fantastic experience. The showrunner, Steve Franks, was amazing because I was really hired more for mystery stuff, like mystery stuff. And when I got there on the first day, they were like, everyone was talking about it like it was a comedy. And I was like, oh, I'm not sure I'm in the right place. Uh, so Steve was great at letting me get my comedy chops up and stuff like that. When we would do readthroughs of the scripts and roundtable scripts to add jokes and stuff, I felt completely encouraged to pitch jokes too. Not just mystery stuff, things like that. And there was a reason the thing ran for so long. It ran for something like eight or nine seasons. They're still making movies, I think. That everyone on the show just got along. Everyone on the show was like, friends. There was. I don't remember feeling there was any weird, like, political stuff on set or anything. Like. Also, I think it was the vibe of the show. If you've ever seen the show, it's sort of like a laid back, fun, funny show.
Anupam Nigam: I think I've seen every episode.
Anupam Nigam: Okay, great.
Anupam Nigam: I was a fan. Am a fan.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, excellent, excellent.
Susan Lambert Hatem: It's the kind of show that they don't make a lot of because it's sort of comedy drama.
Anupam Nigam: Exactly.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Mystery, you know, it was.
Anupam Nigam: It was of its time because there were a lot of, like, dark procedurals out at the time, like Without a Trace and CSI and Cold Case. These things were so popular at this point that Steve was like, what if we did a different take on that? Like a lighter, funner thing? And I. It's something that even, like, younger people are starting to discover. When I was up in Vancouver shooting Fire Country, the director's son came to visit. And they were speaking in Spanish, but I heard the word Psych. They were like, blah, blah, blah. And he was pointing at me. He's like, Psych. And the kid's eyes, like, lit up. He was like, you wrote on Psych? I watch it on Peacock. And I was like, wow, really? So after Psych, I went to a SciFi Channel show called Defiance. And then after that show called Mech X4. And they wanted someone. They wanted to be darker and more serialized, which Defiance was. And, like, when he described the premise, it was like robots versus monsters and stuff's like, stop talking. I know I'm in. I know exactly who you want. So, uh, I met with Steve. Everything was fantastic. I watched the presentation. It all went fantastically. And, you know. So, yeah, I ended up showrunning that with Steve for, uh, two seasons. It was like one of the best experiences I had in television. It's on Disney+, if you're curious. But, uh, it's one of the few shows that
even sometimes I'll throw on and watch and be like, oh, yeah, I remember this episode. We broke this episode and it turned out really well.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And then you went to work for Station 19.
Anupam Nigam: That's right. Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And how was Shondaland? Do you get like a little-- Like at Disney-- When you go to Disney, you get Disney University Day. Do you get Shondaland Day?
Anupam Nigam: Sadly, no. I think I met her twice in real life. Like, just to give you an idea of how big her empire is. There was a day we were working in the writer's room, and the elevator was like. The elevator to go up to her office was nearby. And she just, like, popped her head in and was like, what show is this? And we're like, oh, we're the, uh. We didn't have a title yet either. We were just called the Untitled Grey's Anatomy spinoff, or UGAS for short. And so we were like, oh, we're in the spinoff. She's like, oh, I thought this was that show. And then she went to her--
Anupam Nigam: Where were you located for the writers’ room for that one?
Anupam Nigam: Season one was at Sunset Gower.
Anupam Nigam: Okay.
Anupam Nigam: And then we sort of in season two, I think we moved full time to Sunset Las Palmas in season two. And then season three, it moved again to Prospect.
Anupam Nigam: I worked at Prospect.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, okay.
Anupam Nigam: From 2007, 8.
Anupam Nigam: Mmm-hm.
Anupam Nigam: Until 2000-- Oh, for goodness sake. How much time has gone by anyway, for seven or eight years? I know where the Grey's Anatomy writers. They were in that bungalow. Yeah, those two bungalows over there. But I wasn't. I know that Shonda had an office in the Sunset Tower building, and so I was wondering if maybe that's where you guys might have been.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, our stages were at Sunset Las Palmas, but our room moved around. We moved in season three to Prospect because they wanted more integration with the Grey's writing staff.
Susan Lambert Hatem: So what did they want from you on Station 19?
Anupam Nigam: Station 19 again, it was that being certified as an EMT thing, I think was the real reason I got in there. They were looking for someone. I think one of my agents was like, oh, you know, An did that. An has that training. And they're like, oh, we'll send them over. And it was like a huge deal for me because I loved working on Mech X4. Being like, on a half-hour comedy action family show. I loved it. But I was also like, but I'm really a one-hour drama writer. Like, uh, I would gladly go back to that world now, but I didn't want to get stuck there. I would have wanted the ability to go back and forth. And so I was a little bit nervous about that. And then one day my agents call and say, so we have a meeting for you. It's a spinoff of Grey's Anatomy on ABC and Shondaland. I was like, oh, this is perfect. This is exactly what I want. To be able to have the ability to go back and forth between kids and one-hour drama.
Susan Lambert Hatem: That's amazing.
Anupam Nigam: The funny thing is, at the time, there weren't a ton of Indian writers out there looking to staff on stuff. And I knew the showrunner was from Texas. And in my head I was like, she's probably never met an Indian person. I'll be a unicorn to her. Like, she'll just think it's like, fascinating. And I go in there and I make a joke about how hard my name is to pronounce. She's like, oh, I totally understand that my husband's Indian, so I know exactly what you're going through. I was like, ah, I lost my unicorn. Now I have to earn this on merit. Like switch tactics completely.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Now you're the firefighter person.
Anupam Nigam: I guess so, yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And you're on Fire Country. Have you learned more about firefighters?
Anupam Nigam: I have, actually. It's funny because there's different kinds of firefighting. Station 19 was what you call structural firefighters, which is like putting out buildings on fire and stuff like that. Whereas Fire Country is about wildland firefighters and it's also about inmate firefighters. Like, that's a big part of the show. So yeah, I learned a lot about how different that kind of firefighting is from structural firefighting.
Susan Lambert Hatem: What was it like to sort of have the fires in LA having worked on the show? Did it give you comfort or fear?
Anupam Nigam: Fear mostly because, like, when you work on a show about fire, all you do all day is read, like, terrible articles about, oh, these are all the things that could go wrong. Terribly wrong.
Anupam Nigam: I hate to say this selfishly. There was a part of me that was like, if people are watching fire on the news all day, what appetite will they have for watching a show about fire? Like, I won't lie, I had that little concern. Like our concerns were, uh, like everyone in LA was like the firefighters and everyone's safety and people losing their homes and stuff. But I did have a 1% fear about that.
Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, well, have we covered enough of this? Can we move on to the point of this episode? Yes. And maybe it's time to take a little break and then we'll come back and actually talk about The Facts of Life.
Anupam Nigam: I don't know. We could talk about.
Susan Lambert Hatem: I know this is finished.
Anupam Nigam: We love TV. We love talking about TV.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Woo-hoo! Shondaland. All right, we'll be right back.
Anupam Nigam: And now it's time for some Facts of Life talk. Yea!
Susan Lambert Hatem: Excellent. What did you remember about Facts of Life?
Anupam Nigam: What I remember most about Facts of. I think it's like, two things. One is that the show always moved forward. I feel like, at the time, sitcoms wanted to maintain a status quo where things didn't change on the show. And so you could drop in at any time and you could air them out of order. It's syndication. You don't have to worry about what order you aired them in. But I felt like Facts of Life, like, the characters were always growing and moving forward. You see Blair and Jo graduate from high school on the show and go to college, and you see them in college and, you know, it's. The, uh, show kept changing. Like, in season one, it's, like, mostly takes place in that dorm, that dormitory. And then season two through five is kind of like, more in the school, like that cafeteria and all that stuff. And then by season five, Edna's running, uh, her own business. And then by, like, season seven, that business gets burned down and it becomes a new business. Like, I feel like if you watch an episode from, like, season eight where Cloris Leachman is there and the young ladies are mostly grown up, it looks very different from season one. It almost looks like a completely different show.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. Because it's a different set altogether. And then. Yeah, I agree. It's weird that way. It's unusual for the time.
Anupam Nigam: Right.
Sharon Johnson: And the girls have grown, so I guess they almost were forced to. But still they seem to lean into it in ways that sometimes other shows don't kind of take their time moving forward.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, it didn't get that thing. Like, a lot of people would say when Community came out. It's like, how long do you go to community college for? I feel like people asked that because the characters were always moving on from Eastland and stuff like that. Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: We just made a reason for them all to hang out together forever. And nine, uh, seasons.
Anupam Nigam: Right. Like, in a lot of families, sometimes maybe a kid would go to college, but they would still be hanging around the house and stuff. Like, a lot of families sticoms take place just in that house. And it doesn't change that much. But Facts of Life always kept evolving. Even Edna Garrett's job kept changing throughout the show.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. She became a dietitian so that they could do the cafeteria stuff, I think. And then. What else? What else did you remember?
Anupam Nigam: The other thing is just how I feel like it was so aptly titled. I feel like I just learned so much about the world and things to watch out for. Like, what we now today call very special episodes. Like, they did a lot of them. Um, Like, I don't think I knew what a Jewish funeral was until Natalie Green's father passed away. You know, like, it's possible. I didn't know what abortion was until Natalie wrote a fake article about it on the show. So. And, like, the show seemed to be, like, geared to protect young women from all of the things that were out there waiting to destroy them. I think you have to remember this is the time when, like, Brooke Shields was, like, 14 and doing, like, modeling and saying, like, nothing gets between me and my Calvin Klein jeans. Like, really kind of, like, now we say it's, like, inappropriate.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Wildly, wildly. Child abuse, I think, is what we call.
Anupam Nigam: And so, like, but so this show was kind of there. Like, they did an episode about Tootie becoming a model and it being, like, too adult, you know. So it, like, warned you about those things. Like, it did teen prostitution. Like, I can't believe some of the episodes that they were able to do. Like, that suicide. They did an episode. And. Oh, and the other thing I'll say is I think it changed what families were on the show, too, because this was a place where families sent their kids. Like, normally sitcoms are about a family, and the parents are always great. They always give the kids good advice, and, yes, they'll discipline them if they screw stuff up. But on this show, they didn't necessarily get along with their parents. Like, Edna Garrett was the one who filled the role of the parent. But, like, also, Blair and Jo both came from families that, like, the parents were divorced already. Like, I'm not sure that was something you saw on TV at the time a bunch. It was, like, very, like, pre-Modern Family.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and then there's the Natalie episode where she sees her dad having an affair in a restaurant and confronts him about it. And you're like, what is happening? Like, it's interesting how serious it was.
Sharon Johnson: I did not watch it as it was airing. I have always had an aversion to shows about teenagers.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Um, Sharon's always been an adult, thank you very much.
Sharon Johnson: I was more interested in what the grownups were doing than what the kids were doing. So I did not watch it at the time. And so in watching it for the podcast, I've been really surprised at the. Obviously, I haven't watched every episode, but just the amount of ways in which they really tackled serious topics and really tackled them well, I thought. I mean, surprisingly well. And in ways that I think would still hold up today because they're kind of evergreen stories about women, girls growing up and the things that they have to face and how to deal with them. I was just so impressed with what I've been seeing.
Anupam Nigam: I think there was a reason-- It was kind of an under the radar hit too. It was like. It was never like the number one show on television, but it ran for nine years. Because I think people really tapped into what you're talking about.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and I think it had a kind of a rough season one.
Susan Lambert Hatem: So I was. I had totally forgotten that there were all these girls in season one. There's seven girls and two other main cast members. A teacher and a headmaster. You know? You know, there were a lot of people in that cast. It was a lot like, how would you support that over time?
Anupam Nigam: The funny thing is, if you watch the pilot, they really hedge their bets that the show might not be successful. ‘Cause like Edna Garrett said, like the Diff’rent Strokes characters are in the pilot and Mr. Drummond says, but this isn't gonna be permanent. Right? Like you're still gonna come back. And she's like, oh, yeah, definitely. Like this is only like temporary temporary, not permanent temporary.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and I had totally forgotten that it started on Diff'rent Strokes. It was sort of a backdoor pilot that was the final episode of season one.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Garrett's Girls. And so she goes just to help out.
Anupam Nigam: Um, I think they may have changed the title to just the Girls School.
Susan Lambert Hatem: The Girls School. Okay.
Anupam Nigam: Possibly you can correct me on that.
Susan Lambert Hatem: No, no, no. Yeah.
Anupam Nigam: And Kimberly allegedly goes there.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, yeah.
Anupam Nigam: You never see her there. This is the only time you see her at which in that episode is called East Lake. It's not called Eastland.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, all right. So I had forgotten that it was a backdoor pilot.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And I had forgotten that then there was this huge cast, including Molly Ringwald, which is so startling to see. Baby Molly Ringwald, like she is nine years old or something crazy like that. She is very young in that cast. And it's fun. It's fun to see all these girls together. So I want to shout out the seven girls featured in the cast the first season. Lisa Welchel as rich girl Blair Warner. Felice Schachter as Nancy Olsen. Julie Piekarski as, uh, Sue Ann Weaver. Kim Fields as Tootie Ramsey. Molly Ringwald plays Molly Parker. I love that they just named her Molly. And uh, Julianne Haddock as Cindy Webster. And Mindy Cohn as Natalie Green. It's hard to even just keep track of them, saying them because there's seven. That's a lot.
Sharon Johnson: I just. I don't know what they were thinking with so many girls, so many characters in a half-hour sitcom. I mean, I don't know.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And they cast real girls. They weren't casting 18-year-olds to play 12.
Susan Lambert Hatem: They were casting young people.
Anupam Nigam: The best story is how Mindy Cohn got cast.
Susan Lambert Hatem: There was a documentary that we watched about it that's great. I'll put it in the description links. But yes, keep going.
Anupam Nigam: If I'm getting it wrong, please correct me is that Charlotte Rae and the producers went to a private school on a tour to just do research on how, uh, these, like, girls schools work. And their tour guide was Mindy Cohn. And if that's not right, tell them.
Susan Lambert Hatem: No, no. This is what I heard too.
Anupam Nigam: Mindy Cohn was the tour guide and she was just so bubbly and lovely and funny that Charlotte Rae went to the producers and said, you have to write a part for this character. It might have been. She's just like Charlotte Rae's best friend, whose name was Natalie, I think.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, that's. Yeah, that is so funny. Yeah, I heard that same story. So we can. We're just gonna put that as canon.
Anupam Nigam: And they made Tootie wear roller skates. Cause they thought she looked too young.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And also she was too short for the camera angle.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, I didn't know that part.
Susan Lambert Hatem: That was the part that I read too, that she looked too young, but also she was too short to get a good shot. So they needed her to be as tall, they needed her to be taller. So they just said, you have to be in roller skates the whole time. And she is. And you're like, that girl's gonna fall over. No one should be letting her skate in the house.
Sharon Johnson: I'm astonished that somebody somewhere didn't go, um, this really could be a problem if she falls over at some point and breaks a leg or something.
Susan Lambert Hatem: But it’s. Here's what I will say because in our Heather Thomas interview, she talked about roller skating. And so many people like, that was the thing. 70s and 80s was about roller skates. Who was it that said they met their husband roller skating in New York?
Sharon Johnson: I don't remember.
Susan Lambert Hatem: It’s somebody we've interviewed on the show.
Sharon Johnson: Oh, my gosh.
Susan Lambert Hatem: She's like, oh, yeah, we've met on roller skating in New York. I'm like, that's insane. Why aren't you dead? Apparently, 70s and 80s roller skating was the thing. Everybody was on roller skates, especially Tutti. They had the headmaster as a leading character played by John Lawler. And Jenny O'Hara played a teacher, Emily Mahoney. And it became very clear that they didn't have a place for her. So I've watched most of season one, and they try to give her some things to do, but then basically that's sort of covering Mrs. Garrett's ground.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, it was a little bit like, it felt like she's supposed to be the anti-Mrs. Garrett, like the disciplinarian versus making sure these girls need to act right and stuff like that. And it just didn't land. I don't think she made it through the first season.
Susan Lambert Hatem: No. She lasts about four episodes.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And then she's gone. The headmaster makes it through the whole season, the end of season one, and they sort of take a hiatus. They're not doing great in the ratings.
Anupam Nigam: Correct.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And they kind of revamped the show.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And that's the show that I remember.
Anupam Nigam: That's the funny thing about Facts of Life is I think, like, how many shows are there where you remember the soft reboot and, like, not the original, you know? And also how many shows do that successfully where it's like, oh, this isn't working, but we can fix it. We promise. We can fix it. And it usually doesn't get fixed, but this time it, like, took off.
Susan Lambert Hatem: It totally fixes it. And I think it was from when I was reading about the ratings, that second season comes back great and that keeps rising. And by season three, they're the number one NBC sitcom and number two show on NBC.
Anupam Nigam: That's awesome.
Susan Lambert Hatem: So it really does become a hit. It becomes a bigger show than Diff’rent Strokes.
Anupam Nigam: I feel like it's the answer to so many TV trivia questions, like, what show didn't work in season one, but they figured it out in season two? What spinoff ended up doing better than the original? Like, what show survives replacing its lead character with another actress and still goes for a couple more seasons?
Susan Lambert Hatem: It's such a weird show. It just sort of does keep going. And yet the way that people remember the show or the way that I remember the show is that second to third season, that's the season. That's the show for me. Everything else is like, oh, look. Oh, yeah.
Anupam Nigam: I guess for me, it's that season. And also the first Edna's Edibles season. Like, I remember that set perfectly.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Can we talk for a minute about Edna's Edibles?
Sharon Johnson: Before we do that, though, maybe it's just that the shows have been covering on this podcast, but I had not realized how many shows during the 80s, maybe the 70s, where they the network thinks enough of it to say, okay, everything's not working, but we're gonna take some time and we're gonna try to figure it out and we're coming back. We're gonna bring it back. These days it's like, first episode, nobody watches it. See ya.
Anupam Nigam: Uh, that's right.
Sharon Johnson: You know? And I know it was a different time in TV or whatever, but there really seemed to be a lot more patience and an understanding of when they actually had something that maybe they just hadn't quite found it and were willing to give it another try. And I just wish there was more of that. One of my all-time favorites and an exception to my no teenager rule -- My So-called Life. To this day, I don't understand how it didn't last more than 13 episodes, but talk about a great show to this day. We keep seeing this over and over again in our shows. I mean, obviously, most infamously in Cagney & Lacey because they kept trying and third time was the charm. And now suddenly they've got a big award-winning hit on their hands.
Susan Lambert Hatem: But it was interesting. They brought in Margie Peters and her writing partner.
Sharon Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Assad Kelada comes in to direct in the end of season two.
Sharon Johnson: Thought it was season three?
Susan Lambert Hatem: It may have been season three.
Anupam Nigam: The most important thing I think with season two was they introduced Jo.
Sharon Johnson: Yes. Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Four of the girls go. They keep three of the OG girls. They keep Blair, Tootie and Natalie. Right? And again, in retrospect, you're like, they really are these resonant characters from that first season. From episode one, Blair is such a clear character. Tootie is such a clear character and has things to do. And Natalie is popping on the screen and apparently had no acting experience.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Was a high school tour—Andy my guess is she was in the drama club. But then they're like, we need to bring in another character,
Anupam Nigam: An agent of chaos., it felt like. Someone was like, we need a troublemaker on this show.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and these girls, by the nature of where we are, are all from a level of privilege.
Susan Lambert Hatem: So they decide to bring in a scholarship student.
Sharon Johnson: But they're all kind of archetypes, all of the characters. But they fit so well together. They just make it work. I mean
Susan Lambert Hatem: It really is a-- That's that magic of casting and that magic of chemistry of a cast. Because as soon as Nancy McKeon comes on, you're like, she's fantastic.
Sharon Johnson: The missing link.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And it all clicks. Like, the show, just like, you almost hear it.
Anupam Nigam: Like, her relation with Blair is the perfect thing.
Sharon Johnson: Yes.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And then it gives Tootie and Natalie get to kind of, uh, bond by being the others. Right? That kind of thing. Like you're saying, there's not a lot of shows that revamp like that and then come out stronger for it, both in ratings and the success of the show.
Anupam Nigam: I feel like a lot of shows, when you bring on a daring new character, it's like an act of desperation. You're like, god, I hope this works. But in this side, it worked perfectly.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And Jo is so memorable a character. Jo felt like a character that I could connect with because Jo was a tomboy and I was a tomboy. But she's also not of the world of I'm being sent to a private boarding school.
Anupam Nigam: Right. It's funny. Cause they had a tomboy in season one also, but it just wasn't.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And I have to give some credit to that pilot episode.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, yeah. It's very daring.
Susan Lambert Hatem: It's very daring because they take that tomboy and Blair basically accuses her of being a lesbian without saying the word.
Anupam Nigam: Strange is the word they use. That girl is strange.
Susan Lambert Hatem: There's something wrong. And Mrs. Garrett says, you're fine. You just be you and you're fine. And it's subtle. Like, if you don't want to think that that's what it's about, then it can just be about this tom--
Anupam Nigam: Yeah. That she just doesn't fit in.
Susan Lambert Hatem: She just doesn't fit in. But it's also very clearly.
Sharon Johnson: And they did a lot of things like that that were just so jaw dropping. And that's not something you expect them to do in a pilot. It's something you do in the very special episode later in the season or five seasons down. But they kept doing that over again.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And they talked. I mean, there were showrunners on that that had a commitment to tell girl stories like that, to be the young Golden Girls. And when you talk about the tropes, we go back to It's a Living and Golden Girls. And we've got, you know, sort of sexy Blair. Right? Sexy mean girl Blair and the tomboy tough girl Jo. Tutti's the goofy one.
Sharon Johnson: The comedy, comedy--
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yep. And Natalie is sort of the nervous, almost mom-like one.
Anupam Nigam: Kind of the wiseass too.
Susan Lambert Hatem: The wiseass, yeah. What I was trying to remember was this the first all-girl show? I mean, It's a Living is close, but there's male characters that are. The first season they're a male character. But the second through ninth season, all the leads are all female.
Anupam Nigam: Off the top of my head, I can't think of one before it. Um, I mean, Diahann Carroll had a show where she was the sole lead.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Right, they're sole leads, but I'm talking about like sort of a female friendship. Sex and the City, Golden Girls. In fact, when I was looking at the ratings and when this was-- So one of the problems is I think in season one they aired on Friday nights and then in season two they moved to, I think Wednesday and that did a better slot for them. But then at one point they moved to Saturday.
Anupam Nigam: Which was a big television night back then.
Sharon Johnson: Oh yeah. Saturday was the big night of the week to watch TV.
Susan Lambert Hatem: For its seventh season-- This is according to Wikipedia. It moved to Saturdays at 8:30 to bolster the premiering series, The Golden Girls. They used this show to help launch the Golden Girls.
Sharon Johnson: I forgot the Golden Girls was on Saturday night.
Susan Lambert Hatem: At 9pm
Sharon Johnson: Oh my gosh!
Anupam Nigam: It ended up growing into a whole Miami night of comedy. Right. Like Golden Girls. Empty Nests.
Anupam Nigam: Nurses, I think.
Susan Lambert Hatem: But I thought that was so interesting. They used The Facts of Life to help launch Golden Girls. I love that!
Anupam Nigam: It's funny now because I feel like they feel like two different eras of shows. But no, they aired next to each other.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and you're like, you're like, well, did it really come-- It came seven seasons before The Golden Girls. Like, I'm not sure that The Golden Girls didn't use it as a template for their show. Hey, how about The Facts of Life, only they're old, like 50?
Anupam Nigam: I think at some point after Facts of Life, ABC attempted to do a spinoff of Who's the Boss? Which took place at a modeling academy. So I think that had all. Halle Berry was in it, I think.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes, yes.
Sharon Johnson: Oh my gosh.
Susan Lambert Hatem: I think that's one of the one-season shows we might try to look at. Oh, no, because that's a 90s show.
Anupam Nigam: No, it was in the 80s.
Susan Lambert Hatem: It was 80s.
Anupam Nigam: I think so.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. I think I know what you're talking about. It was a bunch of models.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, it was like Leah Remini, I think, was the character, like she was a friend of Sam's on Who's the Boss?
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.
Anupam Nigam: And then she went to be a model at this place, I believe.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, let's talk about the spinoff. By the way, your first season of Diff'rent Strokes. You've super successful show. Oh, let's spin off in season one. Let's go immediately. And we're gonna take the housekeeper.
Anupam Nigam: She popped in season one, I think.
Susan Lambert Hatem: She popped in season one. She had some attitude. Um, and she was put upon, but by the crazy antics. That's a weird thing to spin off.
Anupam Nigam: I think that's how bad a state NBC was in at that point. I think they were in third place. They're like, we have this Diff'rent Strokes. This works. How do we turn this into an hour of programming?
Susan Lambert Hatem: By the way, just because it was the number-one sitcom for NBC doesn't mean it was number one. I think it was like number 32.
Sharon Johnson: By the way, the ABC show is called Living Dolls.
Sharon Johnson: Oh, okay. Um, was Leah Remini in it?
Anupam Nigam: Yes, she was. Michael Learned. Leah Remini, Halle Berry, David Moscow, Alyssa Milano, of course, Marion Ross.
Susan Lambert Hatem: There are guys starring in that girls show, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But I'm just saying, the Sex and the City, Golden Girls, Facts of Life.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Again, you can't even say It's a Living because the piano player is such a big part that.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Paul Kreppel. All right, what were your some of your favorite episodes?
Anupam Nigam: I'd say my favorite episode is, I think it's called New York, New York, where Blair and Jo, you know, they're fighting in the beginning. It might be a little unfair because it's really a Blair-Jo episode. It doesn't have the whole cast. But Blair and Jo are going back to Manhattan to their respective, like Jo's from the Bronx. She's going to like upper-crust Manhattan area. Blair is, And they realize how much they've evolved and that they don't fit in in these old places anymore. Like Jo's friend, neighborhood friend, is like a racist and like angry. She wants to deface this like Puerto Rican mural and Jo has to stop her. She's like, why, what's wrong? Like they're just expressing themselves and stuff like that. And she's like, oh, but I was here first, you know. And then Blair goes to hang out with this real blue-blood, upper-crust type woman and realizes that like, oh, I'm not this elitist anymore because like, uh, there's something like where her housekeeper didn't make lunch for a lunch party she's having. So she gets all angry and Blair's been working in a kitchen this whole time. You know, working off a debt. So she's like, it's fine. We can make lunch for everybody. And she's like, me? Make lunch? And so they. You know, Blair and Jo were fighting like cats and dogs at the beginning of it, but when they meet back at the train station, they're both kind of in bad places. It's supposed to be a fun trip to connect with old friends, but they're in this, like, weird. Like, it's surprising how many episodes end on a down note, in Facts of Life, where they realize they're like, this wasn't a good trip. I don't fit. Like, I'm growing. I've evolved past these people. Eastland is helping me evolve into a different kind of person. And they realize that they're actually better together than apart.
Susan Lambert Hatem: That's great. When is that episode, do you know?
Anupam Nigam: I think it's like, episode. It's definitely in the living in the cafeteria--
Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay. Yeah.
Anupam Nigam: So it's probably three or four.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Three or four? Yeah.
Anupam Nigam: It's actually written by a guy, uh, named Peter Noah, who, like, goes on to write on The West Wing and stuff like that. You could see early on how, like, oh, there's some, like, great stuff.
Susan Lambert Hatem: There's some good stuff going on.
Anupam Nigam: Happening, you know? One that, like, still amazes me is the one where Tootie meets, uh, Jermaine Jackson. Is it Jermaine Jackson or Tito Jackson?
Susan Lambert Hatem: They tried to get Michael Jackson.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, really? The Jermaine Jackson one has one of the funniest lines because he had a large audience with, uh, young black girls. Right? And, like, teenage black girls love Jermaine Jackson. And there's a point where Mrs. Garrett is looking for Tootie, and she asks the guard, like, have you seen a young black woman? And it's like, that's all.
Sharon Johnson: I have to go watch that episode because Jermaine was my favorite.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, is that right?
Susan Lambert Hatem: Was your favorite Jackson.
Anupam Nigam: I'm curious to know what you think of the outfit he's wearing in that outfit. It's out there.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Weirdly, I think their outfits kind of hold up for the 80s.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: I don't feel like it was like, whoa, what is they wearing?
Anupam Nigam: Occasionally Blair had the shoulder pads, I think. But they were also in uniforms a lot.
Sharon Johnson: This is true.
Anupam Nigam: The funny thing about that also is in season one, they put some of the girls in, like, short shorts. You know what I mean? Like, short jean shorts. But in season two, it feels like someone said no.
Susan Lambert Hatem: That was Margie Peters.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, okay, cool.
Susan Lambert Hatem: They were like, uh-uh, no. These are girls in New York in the fall. What are you doing? And it feels creepy.
Anupam Nigam: But it's such an interesting episode because it's not the usual 80s thing when a giant pop star shows up and they love him and they sing a song together. It's like when Tootie meets him, like, they have no chemistry. They can't connect on any level. Like, it's clear he's this celebrity. Like she was invited as his number one fan, so she expects him to know her. Like, I'm your number one fan. It's me, Tootie. And he's like, oh, I have people around me that like, handle all this. I give all the credit to Jermaine Jackson for letting himself be portrayed and not the best. Like, oh, I love all my fans and stuff like that. You.
Susan Lambert Hatem: That's, I think, one of the reasons the show does so well and holds up so well is it turns in unexpected ways.
Susan Lambert Hatem: You know, it talks about serious subjects. It will take an expectation and turn it. And it's both for the girls and the audience. And I think that's kind of lovely.
Anupam Nigam: It's about fanaticism. Like, she's. She's not just a fan.
Anupam Nigam: She's like a fanatic. She has a tantrum when she can't go to the concert. And I love how the girls call them out. It's like, oh, I didn't know we could just get whatever we wanted if we threw a tantrum. And Mrs. Garrett's like, you didn't see the tantrum.
Sharon Johnson: But I also, like, I haven't seen the episode, but I am going to watch it. But I also like the way what you're describing in terms of it sounds like they don't make Jermaine Jackson to be the bad guy.
Sharon Johnson: It's a realistic situation, but they're not pointing fingers at him. It's just like, okay, this is the reality of the situation. This is what is real without trying to make somebody be good and somebody be bad.
Anupam Nigam: Right. He's very nice and friendly to her. There's no connection.
Susan Lambert Hatem: It's the para-social relationship. Right? I mean, and they had great guest stars on. I mean, there's the Molly Ringwald and the people that are on that then go on to do amazing things. But there's also the Jermaine Jackson and George Clooney. Should we talk about George Clooney? Like, it's sort of George. Is that-- That's not his first thing, but it's his first recurring kind of thing.
Anupam Nigam: He was in the opening credits, I think, at some point.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And it's pretty funny because. Because you both can see the George Clooney of it all, but you can also. He also is just sort of this dude.
Anupam Nigam: He doesn't fit in there.
Susan Lambert Hatem: He doesn't fit. You're like, I don't know. I don't know.
Anupam Nigam: Bring him to explain why he's always there. He's always picking up his newspaper from Egypt. It's just, like, bizarre.
Susan Lambert Hatem: But the Geri Jewell run.
Sharon Johnson: Yes.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Amazing. And that was memorable for me. That was something I remembered from the show because she was popping as a comic. Young woman with cerebral palsy. And it gives you a whole other layer to Blair. It gives you a whole other layer to the school. I don't know. I thought that was really incredible.
Anupam Nigam: I thought the amazing thing. There's a Geri episode where she's asked to plan a banquet. You expect it to be one thing, but like you said, they always attack stories from a different point of view. It's that she didn't know how to ask for help because she wanted to prove she could do it.
Anupam Nigam: You know, like, uh, when you're a disabled person, you're always trying to prove, like, I don't need peoples’ help. But this was a situation where she needed someone. And Edna Garrett says to her, it's like, I'm saying this to you not because you're a disabled person, because you're a person. Like, you needed to ask for help in planning this banquet, and you didn't do it. Like, it has this two thing where Blair tries to take control because she's assuming Geri can't do it. So it has that aspect of it too. But then Geri wrests control, and it doesn't go well.
Anupam Nigam: You know, and Edna has to, like, just, like, everyone needs to ask for help now and again. Like, planning such a huge thing like that.
Sharon Johnson: It does make you wonder what was going on in the writers room throughout, because they were constantly coming up with these ways to tell a story like that that is so different than what you expect. And they don't take the expected road, it seems, ever. Or maybe they do once or. But most of the time they don't. They're going down unexpected roads in a way that is really more true-to-life than a lot of the things that we see.
Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm gonna say some of the funny holds up really well.
Sharon Johnson: Oh, yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: The Tootie-Natalie stuff.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: It's really good.
Sharon Johnson: One of the favorite episodes that I watched was the one where they ended up going to a prison to entertain--
Susan Lambert Hatem: The Holiday Maids. Yes.
Sharon Johnson: That was fantastic. Oh my gosh. On so many levels, that was just fantastic. Everybody's performing and singing and it was just wonderful. It was great.
Anupam Nigam: I say even the first Geri episode, you think the premise is Blair is embarrassed to have a cousin with cerebral palsy, but that's not what's going on.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And you know that had to be the first pitch in the room, right?
Susan Lambert Hatem: And then they went, no, that's not our show.
Anupam Nigam: The pool was so much smaller in terms of the numbers of shows. I knew all about Geri being on this show, for instance.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And you didn't watch the show
Sharon Johnson: And I didn't watch the show. And today I still watch a lot of television, but there's so much that I have absolutely no clue about whatsoever.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And we don't have Entertainment Weekly anymore.
Sharon Johnson: I know! I miss that!
Anupam Nigam: I used to be so up to date on everything that was premiering and stuff like that. And now everything premieres all year round in the streaming universe. So it's just like. It's funny. I remember I came back to Fire Country season two or three. Must have been this season, where everybody was talking about Baby Reindeer. And I'm like, what is that?
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, people will be like, oh my god, this show. And you're like, I have never heard of it.
Anupam Nigam: I don't know what you're talking about. Especially if it's on Apple. Apple has so much stuff with like, big stars and stuff. And I'm like, oh, right, that thing.
Susan Lambert Hatem: But they don't promote it.
Anupam Nigam: They had the fall TV preview.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Fall TV preview.
Anupam Nigam: Like the winter movie preview. Like, everything was great about it.
Susan Lambert Hatem: It was good.
Sharon Johnson: Uh, for me, it was the TV Guide fall preview that would come out in September. That was like my bible for television. And I'd go night by night. What can I watch? What do I have to miss? Because they moved all the shows around and now I can't time shift. So I've got to pick something. You know?
Susan Lambert Hatem: And I looked in the newspaper where they printed it weekly.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And it's so funny. And Rich has-- All of his TV Guides are up in our attic.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, that's awesome.
Susan Lambert Hatem: They're right above us.
Sharon Johnson: I think I still have some of the fall premiere TV Guides that I have in a box somewhere. I may have thrown them out. I don’t know.
Anupam Nigam: I think I have some of my Entertainment Weeklys just for nostalgia's sake.
Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, well, we're gonna bring it back to you. Uh, because you've been working in television now for like 20 years, which is crazy.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: What are some of the biggest changes you've seen in, in these last 20 years?
Anupam Nigam: Oh, that's, that's a thinker.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Besides everything.
Anupam Nigam: I mean, just how we watch television, I think, is the biggest change. Like that thing where the entire country would sit on the couch and watch a show together, I feel has like been obliterated. And it's not just that. It's like YouTube and TikTok too. Like, some people, when they, they're looking for entertainment, they don't even think about television. It's just so radically different. Like, I still think in terms of act breaks.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Mmm-hm.
Anupam Nigam: And stuff like that. Oh, what's gonna make people come back from the commercial? We're gonna end like. But that might not be a thing. Like even the show I work on, some people might watch it on Paramount+ the next day where those act breaks don't matter. You know? Like, I feel like HBO made act breaks, like, not a thing, but I still sort of think in those terms. It's very different. But it's funny too. It's like, it does feel like, like I work on CBS. They're sort of keeping some of those old--
Susan Lambert Hatem: They are old school, uh,
Anupam Nigam: Models going with act breaks and all and spinoffs and all that kind of stuff. So I think there's probably something for everyone out there now. Like if you want like more old school or something more like Apple TV, there's a lot more to choose from. But it feels like that element of like everyone asking the question who shot JR, like, just doesn't really--
Susan Lambert Hatem: When will the next Moonlighting episode air?
Susan Lambert Hatem: You know, I know you're a mentor for the Writers Guild. It's been a tough few years.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, it's true.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Do you have any advice for people trying to break in, people that want to write for television?
Anupam Nigam: I would just say it's one of the greatest jobs on earth. If you can like work on a TV show that you enjoy and you work with people that you get along with, I really think it's one of the best jobs on earth. So I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying to come in, but I would just caution the landscape right now, Peak TV is shrinking. Everyone's been talking about that. Just the landscape right now is a little difficult. So just be ready to take on that difficulty. I hate to say it, but, like, some of my mentees, a lot of my mentees have, they have to get backup jobs now, which wasn't a thing when I started. Like when I started a season order was at least 13 episodes. 13, 16, 20, 22. Right? And so like if you just work for a year-- For anyone who doesn't know, if you, once you get above staff writer, you actually get an additional fee for an episode you write. So if you had salary, if you're on a 13 episode show, you're probably working for 20, 26 weeks and a script fee and that show's canceled, you're financially okay, you know, to like take the next six to eight months off to write a pilot or something to help you get your next job. Amazon's business model is eight episodes and they might not do a second season for two years or something like that. You might have to prepare yourself to be ready to temp or something like that. Have kind of a backup job, or something, driving Ubers or something like that. I do feel like there are some writers out there that discourage. It's like, oh, it's not the way it was. It's not-- Peak TV is over where you could get
a 22-episode thing and you would be good for two years, something like that. I don't want to discourage anyone from coming into it. Like I said, it's a great job if you can get on a show that you enjoy writing and you're working with great people. But I would just be ready for it to be a challenge.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. Welcome to now.
Anupam Nigam: Some shows don't even hire those lower-level writers. They'll just hire all upper-level writers. It does feel like we're in a little bit of a time where people are hiring a lot of their friends. So if you're just new out here and you don't really know anyone-- Like when I came out here for the Warner's workshop, I didn't know anybody. I was lucky.
Susan Lambert Hatem: People were open. Like it was. They wanted fresh voices. They wanted people to come in from New Jersey who had been, you know, a lab tech.
Anupam Nigam: And if you only have eight episodes, you might only need four writers for that. So even the staffs are getting smaller.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, on that good note--
Anupam Nigam: But the reason to be optimistic, I'll say, is they make money when they make shows. That's, that's their business model. So there's just a part of me that's like, they're gonna, it's like gonna--
Susan Lambert Hatem: They're gonna realize that.
Anupam Nigam: It's gonna get better. They actually saved money during the strike because they didn't produce anything. So there's a little bit of like, oh, when we don't make stuff we save our money. But the real money comes in when you make something.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And you make a hit,
Anupam Nigam: And you make a hit and.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And you have enough of that hit.
Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm telling you, like when you look at what gets streamed, The Office, you know, Law & Order.
Anupam Nigam: Mmm-hm. Little House on the Prairie apparently.
Susan Lambert Hatem: I mean, people want to love characters on television and they want to live in these worlds and I think that there is room for both. Right? Yeah. You can have your one-off, eight episode White Lotus, but you could also have Fire Country and you can also have Psych. We need more Psychs.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah.
Sharon Johnson: Speaking of Psych, the fact that that kid came to you on set, I'm watching Psych, the show that was not on probably when he was a kid. I hear that a lot. Oh, my kid is watching this show from 20 years ago, from 15 years ago that's got all these episodes. It's on streaming somewhere and now they're making what, eight episodes? 10 episodes, if it's not a network show. And what's the longevity? I mean look at Friends, for goodness sake. I mean I know that's a unicorn because it's-- Still, there are a lot of Friends-type shows that are out there that people are still watching on streaming.
Susan Lambert Hatem: I mean you look at the Office.
Sharon Johnson: Yeah.
Anupam Nigam: Grey's Anatomy.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Grey's Anatomy.
Anupam Nigam: Like, young girls, like 13-year-old girls right now. Because that McDreamy, that romance thing, it's eternal. It doesn't matter what year you see like someone, people pining for each other and stuff like that. It just works.
Susan Lambert Hatem: People pining people making bad decisions and having to own up to them. That works.
Sharon Johnson: That's TV drama.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Come on.
Anupam Nigam: The funny thing you say about Friends also is if you watch an episode of Friends, there's like multiple stories in it, right? Like the people kind of pair off into stories. Facts of Life didn't really do that. I feel like there's just one story per episode and people would either be at the center of that story or they would be on the sidelines of that story. Like I don't think it has--
Susan Lambert Hatem: That's interesting.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah, I don't think it has B-stories-- If you watch--
Susan Lambert Hatem: Not too often.
Anupam Nigam: It's not like Chandler and Joey are going to a hockey game while Monica and uh, Phoebe are going to a massage parlor or something like that.
Susan Lambert Hatem: This has been great. All right. Where can people find you if they want to? Not like to stalk you?
Anupam Nigam: Oh, like on social media? I'm on. I'm on X. And Instagram.
Susan Lambert Hatem: No, we call it Twitter here.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, okay. Twitter. I'm on Twitter. Twitter. I mean, my name's unique enough. I think you'll find it. I think it's just Anupam Nigam. And on Instagram It's AnupamNigam1, because apparently there's another Anupam Nigam out there.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Back to Fire country?
Anupam Nigam: Hopefully, hopefully. Fingers crossed. That's what's happening.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Are you on hiatus now?
Anupam Nigam: We're on hiatus now. We're shooting our season finale right now and we haven't actually been picked up for a season four yet, but we expect it.
Susan Lambert Hatem: That's why streaming took off with COVID. It was comfort food. We want to figure out connection, human connection. We want to figure out how to act in the world. We want to be able to figure out how to make mistakes and get out of them.
Anupam Nigam: And also have Mrs. Garrett there to, uh, just clean this up for you. I just need some advice.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. Just sit me down and tell me it's going to be okay and what I should have done.
Anupam Nigam: And there are movies too. I don't know if you remember. There was like, they went to Australia. They went to Paris.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Facts of Life went to Paris. Facts of Life.
Anupam Nigam: Facts of Life went to Down Under.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And then the Reunion. Reunion TV movie in 2001.
Anupam Nigam: Which, sadly, Nancy McKean is not in because I think she's shooting The Division.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes, that's fine. So it's your fault.
Anupam Nigam: It's my fault. It's your fault.
Anupam Nigam: It's kind of funny not to be too dark, but the Diff'rent Strokes kids had a rough time after the show ended and not a lot of-- Not happy endings there. But for some reason it feels like everyone on Facts of Life, sort of just like the show ended and they just kind of went on and never really heard the, oh, Lisa Welchel on a DUI or anything like that. You never really heard stories like that.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. I think they seem mostly happy, which is good. We like that. I think they were well taken care of. From the documentary, it feels like they were very aware they were casting young women and that they wanted them to be able to be young women. And that was a tough thing to do in Hollywood.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Especially in the 80s.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And so I think that they went out of their way to make sure they were protected, which I don't think happens on every set in the 80s. So it is nice when you feel like, oh, they're okay.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. I mean--
Anupam Nigam: It was a good experience.
Susan Lambert Hatem: It was a good experience. Yeah. I feel that from their-- The way they talk about the show.
Anupam Nigam: Yeah.
Susan Lambert Hatem: I hope they'll come on and talk about the show here. We're trying, but they've kind of said no to us already.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, is that right?
Susan Lambert Hatem: We reached out. It may not have been the perfect timing to reach out. We reached out right when they were announcing they weren't gonna do a reboot because things went awry.
Anupam Nigam: Yes.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Maybe we'll get Molly Ringwald on.
Anupam Nigam: Or George Clooney.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Or George Clooney.
Sharon Johnson: Yeah. He's got nothing to do.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Exactly. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Anupam Nigam: Thank you for having me. I feel like I don't have a venue to go talk about--
Susan Lambert Hatem: The Facts of Life? That's weird. Odd. Come on back anytime.
Anupam Nigam: I will. Absolutely.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And I really appreciate you coming on talking.
Anupam Nigam: Oh, thank you so much.
Sharon Johnson: It's been a pleasure. Really has. It's been a lot of fun.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Yay. Yay.
Sharon Johnson: For today's Audiography, find out more at twitter.com/AnupamNigam and on Instagram at instagram.com/anupamnigam1. That's the number one.
Susan Lambert Hatem: You can watch The Facts of Life for free on the Roku Channel and Tubi. Links will be in our description.
Sharon Johnson: You can watch Behind Closed Doors: The Facts of Life documentary at Amazon or Apple. Again, links will be in our description.
Susan Lambert Hatem: If you're looking for ways to help out and hang in, I recommend Democracy Docket, the ACLU and abortion funds. Hey, be sure to tune in to our next two episodes where we will talk with the incredible writer, producer Margie Peters, who worked on four seasons of The Facts of Life.
Sharon Johnson: I can't wait.
Susan Lambert Hatem: She's gonna give us all sorts of good stuff.
Sharon Johnson: I know. It's gonna be great, people. Saddle up.
Susan Lambert Hatem: And Sharon, we have had a very exciting thing happen. We are now nominated for an Ambies Award, which is voted on by the Podcast Academy.
Sharon Johnson: We're just so delighted. And, not for just ourselves, but for everybody else that helps us make the podcast happen, especially Melissa and Kevin.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Melissa and Kevin. Although it does say best indie hosts. So super appreciative. All of the nominees are pretty cool. Exciting to be in that company.
Sharon Johnson: Please send us your thoughts at 80sTVLadies.com on our website or email us 80sTVLadies@gmail.com.
Susan Lambert Hatem: Hey, take care of yourself out there. We start where we are, we do what we can. Look for joy, spread kindness, stay active, hang in there.
Sharon Johnson: We hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. All of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.
Amy Englehardt [Singing]: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!
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Episode 315: The Golden Girls of Eastland: TV Writer Anupam Nigam Shares His Favorite Lessons from The Facts Of Life

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