DON'T MISS OUT! SIGN UP FOR OUR MAILING LIST

Who Can Turn the World on With His Smile | Bruce Boxleitner, Part 2

Melissa Roth: Weirding wing media.

[Music] [Singing] Amy Englehardt: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Melissa Roth: Welcome to 80s TV Ladies, where we look back in order to leap forward. Here are your hosts, Susan Lambert, Hatem and Sharon.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Hello, I'm Susan.

Sharon Johnson: And I'm M. Sharon. Welcome back to part two of our marvelous interview with Bruce Boxleitner, star of Scarecrow and Mrs. King, how the West Was Won, Babylon 5, Tron, and so much more. This episode is loaded with insights into his time on Scarecrow and Mrs. King, as well as stories from Bruce's early days on Gunsmoke, Policewoman, and Beretta.  

Now, we left part one on a little cliffhanger where we were just about to show Bruce a noteworthy scene From Scarecrow and Mrs. King, Season 2, Episode 21 entitled Burnout. Enjoy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Let me share my screen. Let's see if I can pull this off.

Sharon Johnson: We have faith, Susan.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know you can do it. You can do it.

Bruce Boxleitner: Okay, here we go. Oh, my God.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, let me see. Make sure the sound's up.

Bruce Boxleitner: What was I doing again? I was going, I was faking as though I was doing a Agent Burnout. Yes, but it was all to entrap somebody. Is that this guy?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. This guy is sort of trying to recruit you for the big Bad and. But nobody knows. And Amanda has come in going, you have to come back to the agency and you know Melrose wants you and.

Bruce Boxleitner: Well, let's see how this goes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: See how this goes.

Bruce Boxleitner: this is Amanda.  

(on video) Amanda King: Hello. I came to talk to you about that report from Mr. Melrose.  

Lee Stetson: Yeah, well, I'll do it later.  

Amanda King: No, you really need to do it now. It has to be turned in on time, you know,  

Lee Stetson: Time. Time. Amanda, I have got nothing but time. [sound of a SLAP]

Lee Stetson: I'm sorry.  

Amanda King: That's okay.  

Lee Stetson: I'm sorry.  

Amanda King: You can move your hand.  

Lee Stetson: Amanda. Oh. Amanda. Amanda. Look, Jack, I'll talk to you about your friend later, huh? Amanda.  

Amanda King: No, no, it's all right. It didn't hurt.  

Lee Stetson: I hit you. You just gotta stay away from me. You see what I've been doing lately? You see what I've been going through? I am poison at the agency.  

Amanda King: I just wanna help.

Lee Stetson: Then let me make it easier for you. Just don't help  

(End of video playback)

Bruce Boxleitner: Ah, The ugly side of Lee Stetson. Yeah. So what did. What did you want to know?

Susan Lambert Hatem: I want to know how you guys managed that last slap.

Sharon Johnson: Right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Do you remember what your discussion was? Or what you guys worked on to do that moment. Because it.

Bruce Boxleitner: It.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's so. What's so great about Scarecrow is it's funny and goofy, and then every once in a while, it comes across as very real.

Bruce Boxleitner: Yeah. It can turn on a dime right there. As the old saying is, I think what we discussed was, Kate said, hit me. It's written in, you know, he slapped her. And that stops it, man. And I mean, everybody just freezes. and he realizes he's just. And by the way, I just saw that I blew my cover for a moment there.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: That the other guy's watching. And, momentarily, he blew his cover. And he was stunned by what he had just done or look on her face. Right. So, Yeah, it was. If you remember, tap, tap, bam. That's how she had to gear herself up for it. I didn't hit her. It sounded more like it did than the actual concussion of it. Yeah, it was no fun. I didn't enjoy doing that at all. I would never, like, do that.  

You're always trained to make it look like it's a hit and you're missing, you know, and you're doing fight scenes and stuff like that. Ah. No matter with whom. You don't want to hit somebody, or get hit. And, But there was no way to avoid that.  

So she. She's, you know, she was, an absolute, marvel at those type of things. She was willing to do things physical like that. I don't think we did it. We didn't do it more than once. that angle. Right. Everything else we could do with the trigger, the camera. Because always when making contact with somebody and when you're doing a fight or even that. She's looking me right square in the eye. I'm looking her square in the eye. I have to let her know it's coming.

00:05:00

Bruce Boxleitner: I have to telegraph in my eyes that I'm going to be hitting her. So it was. You notice it was. Don't, don't. Bam. She knows on number three, it's coming. And she would also sell it. But, That was a real stunning look on my face.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It was.

Sharon Johnson: That was great.

Bruce Boxleitner: You know, And. And her. Yeah, yeah. And then he's, you know, begging her not to. Then he has to. You know, Lee had a very short temper.  

Oftentimes, especially with Amanda, it was only because he had deep feelings for and wanted to. He was a protector. You know, he wanted to always protect her from everything. And, But then he, Yeah. His inner voice is fighting him doing that too. So it's a complex character.  

You know, I always, I always thought I came off as such an a-(wolf-whistle). In the first couple seasons because I was. Why are you so mean to her all the time? Well, I wanted her to get the hell out of here. I mean this was an accident never meant to happen. But it was a desperate move on Lee's part at the train there, you know.

Sharon Johnson: and on some level he wanted, he wanted to protect her as you were saying because he didn't think that she, this was something she should get her involved in, you know.

Bruce Boxleitner: Absolutely. Right from the get go. And Billy's going, oh, I think I found you a new partner. And Oh gosh, you know who had the best time was Mel Stewart over in Europe because Mel was a hell of a

Susan Lambert Hatem: He's a saxophonist. Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: Saxophone jazz musician. And during our break there when we were stuck there and that, believe me, it's a wonderful place to be stuck. he was sitting in, in local club jazz clubs.

Sharon Johnson: Wow.

Bruce Boxleitner: Jazz was all over Munich. they really loved it there. And he fell in with a bunch of guys that were standing in the lobby of the Munich Hilbert. And they were all like, they all had British accents and everything. And then he always saved. And it's the strangest bunch of brothers I've ever met anyway, but he fell in right away. Mel was all about. That's all he ever talked about. Ah was And he was really good. Very, very very good. And he sat in on a bunch of, in a bunch of jazz clubs around town. So.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's amazing. That's amazing.

Bruce Boxleitner: Super Funny guy. And Martha I teased incessantly. Martha was like one of my sisters. I, I was the oldest of four kids and all of them were female after me. So I was, I could be living hell for them or I could, you know, I was big brother that could go and fight their battles for them too if they needed it. And I was the one standing there at the door when a boy came to pick him up for a date. You know, my dad didn't even have to do that.  

So But with Martha that's the kind of thing we still have the same. We haven't changed a bit. We still batter with each other like that, you know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: And But every Friday night, the last scenes before the weekend for the, that when we were back in la, I was always in Billy Melrose's office and Mel always had these, you know, these scenes where he had dialogue as Long as your arm on the script. And he was always great at it. But he you know that he was a. Like a Korean War hero. Mel was the Korean War? Yes.

Sharon Johnson: Wow.

Bruce Boxleitner: Yes, yes he did. And he never talked about it much. Most veterans don't. But been in some really bad stuff and he would sit and tell me about that once in a while. And we had some long time to sit and talk and talk, but inevitably then it would go back to jazz. And So they were always in Billy's office. And Mel used to slaughter the dialogue sometimes, you know, he would have the. And he would have all the spy jargon to do all the, you know, or the government agency and they're always in acronyms and things like that. I kept going, I'm glad I don't have these lines. And you know, and then you've got the crew sitting around going, are we going to get out of here? Oh my God, how many takes is this?  

You never knew that when you saw the finished product. No, I mean he just was always great and. But you know, Friday night, it'd been a long week, right? He has to come in and he had to. What we call, what we call it “laying the pipe” or something. He had to, he had to tell us everything. We're going to do all the exposition in that episode, all the, he's carrying all the exposition and that is not an easy thing to do. So. And I would stand off camera, right next to the camera and make faces at him and things like that. I mean we were just crazy. We would do anything because we were tired. We had long hours on this bloody thing, you know, back then I, I always say episodic television, maybe not so much today, but the schedules we had to keep were so that we would

00:10:00

Bruce Boxleitner: work 14, 15 hours, you know. Kate would have to get in an hour and a half to two into hair and makeup every morning.

Bruce Boxleitner: And finally, and I don't blame her, she was the lead, our headlining star. And she got to leave if she was in at 5:30, she always left by 6:30.  

So I have a fight scene to do at 7:30 at night when you've just after a long week or something like that, they always say the action. The poor stunt pups, they would all sit around playing cards or whatever, sitting around waiting. And oftentimes it happens because then they want to rush the action. The very stuff you don't want to rush. Somebody's going to get clocked. Somebody's going to fall down. Something's going to happen.  

We were luckily throughout all of that. I don't think one time an actor leaned into my stunt doubles punch. He leaned in a little too far. Ouch. broke his nose. And that is the stuntman's credo. Thou shall do no harm to these screen actors. And, but we had little things like that, you know, like tying me on an airplane. A, biplane going up. That was me hanging out. Was it?

Susan Lambert Hatem: What about you on the helicopter? That was Gary? That was amazing.

Bruce Boxleitner: They had a. They had a helicopter up and I hung from it flying stationary.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: Okay. And then they jumped me and let me jump down. Gary got a stunt, a stunt, award for that. And it was a marvelous thing. They took him through a river, they took him through trees, they took him through a fence. And here's the great thing. It was not safe. And just to tell you what kind of a, madman he was, he was not cabled to that thing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Nuh.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, my.

Bruce Boxleitner: What? Here's the reason why. Here's the thinking. This is insane. What if something happens to the chopper? I'm stuck to. I'm hanging by it, cable to it. What if something, the chopper goes awry? Something hits and something. And then we. I go down with it. I'm much safer jumping free. And I'm going. What was. What's the third choice? I mean, you know, I mean, you're, you're falling either way. It could be a half a mile up or something. Who knows? You said, well, I could at least pick my own where I was going to be found. But that's how crazy that was. That was nuts. Because he ran. If you look at that thing again, he ran and jumped on it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: And it took off. There was no way to clip him on to a thing up his sleeve.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, I thought that. Then they cut and then they crashed.

Bruce Boxleitner: No, I don't believe there is a cut in there of him actually taking off.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: And they shot all of that with another chopper by him following them handheld.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's a pretty incredible stunt, and it.

Bruce Boxleitner: Is a wonderful stunt. And our chase scenes. Think of, her car. Yeah, the action that little station wagon went through. Oh, my God.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Bus stops, you guys.

Bruce Boxleitner: Oh, I made everything. Oh, yeah, we did. We did. And you know what would have been a fun day for you all? To be standing out in the street and, in Toluca Lake, California, which is right there in Burbank. And we use that main street so many times. Always. I might Add trying to avoid a palm tree in the picture. We're supposed to be in Virginia, not Florida and not California. Okay. or Tahiti. no, we have palm trees everywhere, so they would have to avoid that. But we would do those scenes in Mrs. King's car or my, Corvette, towing in back of a camera truck.  

Okay. The whole camera crew's on there. Director's sitting there. You got 50 people hanging off this truck, with. It's got all kinds of pipe railings and stuff, you know, for equipment to hang on, to be secured to. And you're shooting this way. That was a long day. And it was all that fun dialogue where we're just bantering back and forth, back and forth. We did those scenes 50 times. you know, I mean, going up and down.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: Just changing out the angle, depending on how elaborate the director wanted to get. Some didn't really care. Someone wanted to get really artsy and, fun and complicated. But, yeah, those. I think they had one or two of those cars per station wagon. And we had two. I know one of the sound producers, he bought the last, Corvette.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and then. David, David, David.

Bruce Boxleitner: Yes. I'm amazed at this guy. And that's a great book, by the way.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It is a great book.

Bruce Boxleitner: Give it a nice little, you know, everything you want to know about the scarecrow

00:15:00

Bruce Boxleitner: and Mrs. King, it's there. It's a good doorstop too, as well.

Susan Lambert Hatem: No, but that is a book, you know, and sometimes the fan books are made, you know, quickly or, you know, this.

Bruce Boxleitner: No, he meticulously detailed and it's accurate in every way. He's, an amazing fan and I think he's been a great asset to the fan club. Yeah, you know, I know, Janette, great.

Bruce Boxleitner: But yes, he restored. What was that? An old,

Susan Lambert Hatem: What was it he would know. And it's in the book, the ultimate fan. God.

Bruce Boxleitner: Oh my God. That was so much fun. Scarecrow was the. That at that point, that was the real big time so far as being on Network television. You're one of two stars and the rest of the cast. A lot of people's paycheck was riding on YouTube, showing up and delivering the goods and the audience enjoying those goods. Everybody had to contribute. But in the end of the day, Katie and I had to. There were days I didn't want to do it. There were days that she was tired too.  

I think if we fought anything. And that's episodic tv, like I said before, you're always tired You're always, working against the clock. Time is not your friend. Because then we had to make a movie every seven days because they already had a time slot, you know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: Once it was started on the air, we already, we had way ahead. So, and then in those days, I'm always amazed now because I'm. I'm doing this series. It's six episodes. They call that a series. I call that a two-parter. And maybe some, maybe a three-parter.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Is this the Blue Ridge?

Bruce Boxleitner: Blue Ridge, yeah. And we shoot that in North Carolina. in Charlotte, and in the Blue Mountains there. I've only got one more episode. My character returns.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, good.

Bruce Boxleitner: But what I'm saying is that they're all young. Sarah Lancaster has been around and so is, Jonathan Schick. And they're going, wow. I said, we used to do 22 of these. Yes. And this is where I come off sounding like the grumpy old man. Oh, back in my day, kid, you know. But that is. I'm right there now. It's so different today.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: It's almost unrecognizable in how we shoot now. I have to say, I loved it the way we did it. We had fun. Nobody's having fun anymore. I lament this, by the way, because we have cell phones on the set. Everybody's on their cell phone, no one's talking. And m. I come in and they're going, who is this old geezer? Laughing and joking and telling stories.  

But that's what we did. And that's what made the scarecrow and Mrs. King set so much fun. We didn't all hide in our trailers or dressing rooms. We were on the set the whole time, sitting around a circle of chairs, telling hysterical things and telling jokes. And, Mel was always one of the ringleaders. He and I were the real ringleaders of all the mayhem that went on that set. if he picked it up on me or I picked it off of him and went with it. It was fun stuff. We played practical jokes too. Martha was always outraged by them and Kate would just go, oh, I don't have time for this anyway. But, we had fun.  

I'm 74 years old now. Maybe I'm just getting a little tired. I've been doing this 50 some years. I love the job, but as a younger actor, you've got more zip, you know? And, I'm not done by any means. I've just done a show with Seth MacFarlane, The Orville.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Was that part in the Orville the first time you had to go through that kind of full transformation that they put you. The mask and everything that they put you in?

Bruce Boxleitner: Yes, Sharon, it was. and the only reason I did this, having done all these years to Babylon 5, I so respected the actors that had to be there at 4:30 in the morning, to get in all that glue. And and I had a cowl. That initial head I had to squeeze through. It scared the crap out of me because I, I'm a little bit claustrophobic around the head thing. I couldn't do scuba diving and stuff like that. And to be inside that at first was a little daunting. But it was because of Andreas Katsoulas and Mira, all of them that had to. Billy Mumi, all of them had to do that every day. I said I want to challenge myself. And when Seth cast me in that, I went down and I had a meeting and so I dressed as president. Well, I

00:20:00

Bruce Boxleitner: dressed as the president. I dressed in a suit, tie and shirt, you know.

Bruce Boxleitner: And I walked into an office down on Sunset and where is everybody? And there was a little camera in the corner and I didn't know that Seth was on the other end of that camera over wherever he was. He could have been in his living room. I never saw him. But this voice comes out. That was really great, Bruce. That was really great. I'm thinking, and I want to know your opinion now. I'm thinking he's an alien character, the last of his, of his race. Because by the way, on that set there were no other Smurfs like me. I mean I, I nicknamed myself Papa Smurf and so that they knew who I was, you know, because Ted Danson was on that with us and Garber and all kinds of people.

The reason I bring up Seth too is that he was, he, he's a, he's a genius of a guy. And a lot of times sitting there because the head was so big I couldn't read a book or anything. Seth was a huge Scarecrow and Mrs. King fan because he loves 80s so the 80s Ladies will get this.

He loves the theme music of all those shows back then like yes, Mike Post and Arthur. So Arthur Rubinstein did that song. Seth played it right there. He had like this little piano type thing, he could play that thing. And I talked about Arthur and how we had done, at the Greek Theater, we had done the Telltale Heart, Edgar Allen Poe’s A Telltale Heart with a 60 piece orchestra. I did it with that one Halloween night, or the night, a weekend of Halloween. And it was packed and it was beautiful. But Arthur introduces me with the, you know, to walk out on stage with the theme from Scarecrow. It's just a joy, wonderful joy.  

But it was fun that way, sitting there because I had, I probably talked about Scarecrow, Mrs. King More than anything here. I'd done Babylon 5 and everything. Yeah, yeah, he liked that. But he wanted to talk about interesting everybody like that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We might have to get him on the show.

Bruce Boxleitner: You should, you should. Because he, he knew it immediately. And he was one of these people who said, I sat there with my mother and we watched every episode. So my mom, his mother brought him to that show. That was a big bonding experience for him. And he wanted to know all about that. Just like I'm talking to you now, all the, how did we do this and how do we do that?  

And and I said, it's very different than today. you would have. Your whole cast would be sitting down here with us now instead of separating all over the place off doing their own thing. You know, we'd all be down there. And you know, the whole reason I bring that up is actors are sponges where we're these creative little crazy people and we feed off of each other and the closer you can get. And this is what this. And I wouldn't say, this is what I'm saying to my younger generation here who seem to find TikTok and everything else more fascinating than the person sitting across from you is that. And there's a place to all that.  

I'm not saying, but I'm saying there's something that I saw lacking, and I've seen it at every show that I've been doing, is that everyone's all wrapped up in their own little thing. And instead of exchanging with each other and having. And you know what, you stand up and you walk all of that right into the set with your material. You know what I'm saying?

Bruce Boxleitner: That connection. Yeah, that's how that cast worked in Scarecrow. We all knew each other. And I'm always longing for that. I think I'm always an actor in search of a new family. And I love that because that became family. Even though we were only on four seasons, we spent so many hours. I spent more time, with Kate probably, than I did my own wife. Two months of it there. We would shoot 13 episodes and then we would anxiously wait from the Network. The back nine.

Susan Lambert Hatem: The back nine.

Bruce Boxleitner: So that we would have 22. That was everything. It was called the back nine. Are we going to get the back nine? And I've been on too many shows where we didn't even get the first 13. How many unsold pilots? I have. I have an MTM pilot made at Mary Tyler March, production called “Sporting Chance”, which I thought had a. I wished had a sporting chance. I had many pilots after Scarecrow and, none of them landed. I think, George Clooney claims he's the king of the unsold pilots. Well, buster, I'm a runner up.  

00:25:00

Bruce Boxleitner: I

have to tell you about that because I had a number of them. Scarecrow could have easily gone unsold pilot, but Kate Jackson had still such heat from, the Charlie's Angels. It shows you what a cultural impact that show had. That we were a shoe in. Yeah, hella that. The Yellow Rose didn't last, but, I think if it lasted one season it was. But Cybill found her own Scarecrow.

Susan Lambert Hatem: She did.

Bruce Boxleitner: They got to be a little more adult than we did. We could shoot people, but they had to be wounded. I don't think. Did I actually ever really kill anybody? I can't really remember. At 8:00.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: even if there was a car wreck, you had to see somebody struggling to get out of the wreckage.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That was my favorite.

Bruce Boxleitner: They do these elaborate studs. They get up and stagger around. Okay, he's alive. That's okay. He's just a bloody mess, but he's okay.

Sharon Johnson: Get him a band aid. He'll be fine.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We need to take a break and we're all going to turn on our air conditioning and drink a drink. A thing.

Sharon Johnson: Absolutely.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We'll be right back.

Sharon Johnson: We're back. Let's jump right in.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So your first television show was Mary Tyler Moore?

Bruce Boxleitner: Very. That's how I got my screen actors go card. My entire paycheck went to getting my union card. But that meant that was gold to me. I never had to go through those hoops. The producer, Ed Weinberger of, Mary Taylor Moore, he owed my agent a favor and he read me. He said, bring the kid in, I'll read him. And that's very highly unusual. Producers don't do that. I mean he didn't have writer, producer or anything like that. He was just so, this guy John Crosby brings me in and I'd only been out there probably a, ah, part of the, a good part of a year. That's not much Okay. I had brought enough money with me. I had done the Broadway show back in Chicago again.  

And I kind of had what the Old west, we called a grub steak. And so I, I had enough to live on. So Ed reads me. And it was what, just a couple lines? It was. Murray's daughter was. Got a summer job at the, news studio in Minneapolis. And, she was a total screw up. But nobody had the heart to tell Murray's daughter, she's not gonna make it. Even Lou couldn't do it. He got in there, you know, I'll tell her. And then, oh, you're just a little darling, aren't you? You know, and he couldn't. And so I was a mailroom boy. That guy, kid that he. That Ted Knight brought in, well, look who I found here. He brings me in. That man had. I was. I probably almost wet in my pants a couple times. I laughed so bloody hard that I just couldn't. The man, you gotta admit, he was. When you watch the Mary Tyler Moore show, that guy was absolutely hysterical, you know. And, I got to work with these people. Mary, she was so wonderful to me.  

And Rhoda, Valerie Harper really befriended me. She sat and talked with me forever. Wanted to know everything about me, how good and what plans went. And, it was on that studio lot in CBS in the Valley that I wandered into, the door. Big wide doors were open on this. On the soundstage. And I wandered into Dodge City, Kansas. Gun smoke. The interior of the western town was on a soundstage. Dirt street, wagons, stagecoaches, saloons. There was Miss Kitty's saloon. There was Matt's office. There was Doc, his office up, you know. And, I'm wandering around. They'd all gone to lunch. And I'm wandering around going, I'm going to do this one day. I'm going to do this one. I got it in.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: John Matley, the executive producer, said it was the worst episode they'd done in 15 years. But they cast me, and somehow my future was linked to that because it was actually James Arness gave me my biggest break ever. I wouldn't have never gotten to Scarecrow and Mrs. King, probably, you know, seriously, I mean, I would have never. I'd had that out of the west, first one, that series under my belt. And, so it's amazing. You meet maybe one person in your life could be. Absolutely. Could change the direction and you know what I'm saying? I mean, maybe all of us have that somebody that. Whether it was Advice or some decision made if he. If he. If he'd like Richard Hatch more than me for the role, I don't know where it'd be.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You might have ended up on Battlestar.

Bruce Boxleitner: I might have been on Battlestar Galactic.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Instead of how the West Was Won. I loved you on how the West Was Won, though. That's

00:30:00

Susan Lambert Hatem: the first time I remember you seeing you on television.

Bruce Boxleitner: And that was my springboard. I couldn't have walked in. I couldn't have had any clout whatsoever with CBS. Somehow I just wandered over CBS because I think Mayor Tyler Moore was a CBS show. I think it was. And they were the biggest company on that little lot that used to be, Republic Studios in the old days.  

Kate and I, we had a very interesting relationship in that, you know, I was married, child, and, that I lived, you know, I lived out of town, way north of the Valley and studios, and she lived over in Beverly Glen. So we never did anything really, you know, personal. I mean, so far as hanging out and things like that. We did enough of that on the set for. But, Europe. We all did. We all hung with each other much, much more because we didn't have our loved ones with us until later in the trip, you know, then they came and, So. But Katie and I, I think, we. We had a. We had a. We had a relationship in. Our relationship was kind of. It could be. It could be a little zesty. I'm done. I mean, you know, it could be a little exciting. so far as, you know, I had to watch my steps sometimes. I better toe the line. Who was the boss here? You know, she was Ms. Kate Jackson. So, I had to behave myself and. All right. Get, taken to the principal's office.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Wait, now, who's the principal?  

Bruce Boxleitner: Kate Jackson. Or did she say she was the principal? No, no, no to the principal.

Bruce Boxleitner: You, you know, you heard stuff between Cybill, and Bruce that was. Became legendary. Yes. none.  

None of our stuff was like that. It was always like a little thing. And, Are you really going to wear that shirt? Well, this is what Jimmy handed me. I mean. Yeah, well, I don't like that. I'm going to go. No, no, no. The belt's wrong. Everything's good. That was the first season. I was like, no, wait a second. Notice this is Scarecrow and Mrs. King. It was never anything serious, you know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Now would you prank her?

Bruce Boxleitner: Yes, Yes, I would. I Would. But it's a line just came into my head. You know who I love to really goof off with was Beverly Garland. Yes, she was. No nonsense in that, you know, she just loved, to laugh. She liked to have a cigarette, sit out there and have a cigarette. And she was one of those old time.

Susan Lambert Hatem: She was a Broad.

Bruce Boxleitner: She was a Broad. She was a real dame, you know what I mean? Yeah. And she, she worked with everybody and she did. If you actually look at her credits, she was in everything. But she. There's nothing could faze her. She had her hotel in the Valley, Beverly Garland off of island there. but if Kate would get be in a bad mood, she was upset with something. And if Kate did that because you know what it's like all things. If Kate's feeling bad, we're all feeling bad because we're good.

Bruce Boxleitner: And when she's feeling great, everybody's feeling great. When you're the leads of this show, you literally carry the morale of the day with you.

Bruce Boxleitner: Bev would come walking in, “okay, what's wrong now? What's the problem? Oh, that's nothing. I tell you about the time when so and so and I had to, yeah. You know, Dorothy Lamour and I had to come through this room and I stepped on her, you know,” and suddenly everyone's laughing. You're together like a family. You're having. There's arguments, there's jokes, there's fun, there's everything that happens in a group of people that all know each other so well after a while and You know what I'm saying?

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And it's such an.

Bruce Boxleitner: I can tell between you two there probably. Oh my God. All kinds of drama. All kinds of drama.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All kinds.

Bruce Boxleitner: And we've been there. What's his name on camera?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Kevin. Kevin's lots of Kevin. He's a sound guy. Yeah. Ah.

Bruce Boxleitner: Oh, yeah. Oh, they're the worst. You know, Kevin, I never met a happy sound guy in my entire career.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Kevin's laughing.

Bruce Boxleitner: Hold on. You know why? You may. Okay, I'll tell you why, my friend. Every time when we used to shoot here in the San Fernando Valley. There's three airports in San Fernando Valley and so is Warner Brothers and Columbia Studios and Universal. We're all there. And Burbank Airport, you know, they come up off that Runway and they swerve right over. So we're ready for a take. We've got our lavalier mics on. We're all set and ready to go. And then, that's not good for me. And we. Can we stop right there? That's not good for me.

00:35:00

Bruce Boxleitner: you may be doing your best work. And he blows that take by going, that's not good. Link, could we have another one? But I used to always. I'd go, you guys aren't happy, are you? No, I had the director one. We're moving on. Moving on. But I need one more. I need one more, one more. I need a clean tank. But Kevin would never do that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Kevin would.

Bruce Boxleitner: I'm looking at the corner of the screen.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Kevin is the happy, low key sound guy.

Bruce Boxleitner: I've met wonderful people, you know. Yeah, crews are always my favorite. You take care of your crew. You know, like on the weekends sometimes I would buy the boys like, the grips. when, we could do this back in the day, I'd buy them a case of beer and have it for Friday night. Now that was probably very irresponsible or exotic. Coffee trucks that go around and you know, I always buy those for the, for the kids because they. After we're long gone and my wardrobe is all hung up in the closet and I'm in my car driving home, they're there for another hour or two wrapping up everything, and they have to be there the next morning. I was taught this by Jim Arness. Actually. I learned from him what it was to be the star of a series he certainly knew because Gunsmoke was on for 20 years.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's crazy.

Bruce Boxleitner: Take care of your crew. Give them a little something or other. Something personal. I know at the end of the year we got like a coffee mug with, from Jim. Everybody got a personal coffee mug. They oftentimes do T shirts and caps and things like that. It makes everybody more cohesive when you have those little things like that. Everyone's wearing a crew jacket with the show on the back or on, it. Ah, amazing how what that does for. Or morale.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: I still have my old Scarecrow jacket. We had three of them, two of them. And I have the corduroy gray one. It's kind of like a bomber jacket, but it's corduroy. And a really, really bright, sort of purple. Purple interior. I don't know what it was, but I have that. I've kept most of my crew jackets. I don't know who I'll give them I. My original Tron jacket, too, which was a Members Only one.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, that's so funny. We haven't even touched on Tron.

Bruce Boxleitner: I know I know, and I know.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You talk a lot about Tron.

Bruce Boxleitner: That's how I met Cindy. And that was the. It was while that was in post production that I met for, I did bring, him back alive.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And you brought. You said, hey, how about Cindy? Let's bring Cindy.

Bruce Boxleitner: Yeah. Because I thought she looked the part.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. She's got a little Kate Hepburn, you know, like, she's. Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: yeah, she did. And she had that. She had that kind of feel.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: And, it worked until, they did what they wanted. My care. When you're struggling in the ratings, they're trying some way to fix. What can we do to change it up before we give it up? Unfortunately, they, they let Cindy go because they wanted my character to have more availability, have a love interest in an episode. Because before Lee and Amanda, we were kind of that way. I was forever chasing her, and she was forever resistant. So, And she worked for the. She was like, at the embassy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. She was like the American embassy.

Bruce Boxleitner: Yes. Yes. And that was a fun show, but Scarecrow made it. The pain from losing that, all went away immediately as soon as we did scarecrow and Mrs. King.  

It's what it should have been

Susan Lambert Hatem:  I. was going to say. And so you finally, like, that felt like, hey, I've hit a place as an actor that I was trying.

Bruce Boxleitner: I arrived on my own. Yeah. Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And that's got to feel pretty good.

Bruce Boxleitner: I wasn't under, you know, James Arness, who was this tight titan on television, and, Eva Marie Saint and all the wonderful people that were the adults on the show. We were kids in the 70s, but, yeah, I've done basically a series for every or two for every decade since, the 90s was. The last one was, Babylon 5.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: So I'm more than blessed. More than blessed, believe me.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And. And you've had these, like, very, like, Tron is a franchise. One of the early franchises that sort of didn't know it was a franchise, I think.

Bruce Boxleitner: Well, I think Disney didn't realize they had a franchise. And they're franchise central right now. I mean, when it comes to Marvel and Star Wars and so on. And that's great. and now, you know, they've just done another Tron movie and it was time to have a, a new generation do it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I think they should call you.

Bruce Boxleitner: I know, but they do, and that's fine. I wish them all luck. And I said I had to say it because I was being pestered online, like I cannot tell you. And when I do conventions, that's one of my highest selling, photos and stuff. and

00:40:00

Bruce Boxleitner: most target, you know, it's a generational thing too. Moms and dads, they bring their kids, they watched it and you know, the original was the sweeter one of the.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Bruce Boxleitner: More darker and violent and everything. as we went on. but that's okay. I think that, you know, do I want to do that one again? No, I really don't see what I don't want to do. And I also said this about Scarecrow and Mrs King - It's capturing lighting in a bottle. You know that phrase?

Bruce Boxleitner: We could never find that again. Even if it was a reunion movie. We could never find. We were people of that time, that place, that situation. You know what I'm saying?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Sharon Johnson: It's hard enough to do, to capture it the first time. That magic, that serendipity, whatever it is that makes something like that successful.

Bruce Boxleitner: Absolutely.

Sharon Johnson: Or something.

Bruce Boxleitner: yes, it's. No, it's nothing that's really tangible. It's something. And that's the magic of it all. And when audiences respond like that, then you know, you've got something. Can you do that again 25, 30 years later? Probably not. Probably not.  

First of all, the writers aren't there anymore and it was the writing. Kate and I could probably do the phone book for you. But the magic of, Steve and Juanita, her group I think did the best of Scarecrow and Mrs. Green. Then when they left, they just seemed to leave us all the time. I was always standing there waving, bye everybody. Can you take me with you? Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I think she went to do in the Heat of the Night or something.

Bruce Boxleitner: Yes, yes. She was marvelous. And Steve as well, and she had their whole group. and then we had. George Geiger and his team did a very noble attempt. But then how do we marry Lee and Amanda?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: And it was quite a quandary. We were in there. Seriously.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: Quite a quandary. How do you marry off these two? Should we marry off these two? There's like the pros and cons of doing this and oftentimes I think that could be the death of it.

Bruce Boxleitner: Oh my God, we've lost it. And I did think there was some thing. How would we, even if we had continued, say Katie hadn't been ill, where would we have gone with this, you know? how would we age into this, you know? it was a, it was a tough Concept to make a series around in the first place. Okay, the one off, you know, the pilot. We got that. But how are you going to make this? And how long is it going to. So she had to become a full-fledged agent, but she still had to have her conflict. You know, Poor Dean, the boyfriend.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank goodness we never broken.

Bruce Boxleitner: I think in all those, those bar scenes, we should have had him down at the end of the bar, just this knockout drunk just going, oh, man. You know, I had a career. I had used to take me to the train. You know, I did the weather. I did the weather. I was a good weather man. And then she left me. And I just, you know,

Susan Lambert Hatem: So I think you. I think you could write this right now.

Bruce Boxleitner: I know I could have made a. I think we could have made a great spoof of it. But. And I know there's a lot of fan fiction out there too.

Susan Lambert Hatem: There is a lot of fan fiction.

Bruce Boxleitner: And I always tried to tell them, I can't read this, especially when we were still doing it. You know how many lawsuits go on in Hollywood over that Battlestar Galactica. who was the...? I worked with him too, crazy guy. The, producer writer of that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Glenn Larson.

Bruce Boxleitner: Glenn Larson, yes. Was sued by George Lucas. Oh, boy. Glenn. I did a huge pilot with him. We literally blew up northern Florida.

Susan Lambert Hatem: What was the name of the pilot?

Bruce Boxleitner: It was called The Road Raiders. And it was a spoof like McHale's Navy. Like all those comedies, military comedies, Hogan's Heroes, all those things. I think you can find it. I think you can find it on something like, not to Be or something. One of those. I don't believe it ever aired. Ah. And they spent 3 million on, it. It was a great premise, but Glenn Larson spent probably a million of his own. Richard Lang, I believe, was the one that directed this epic World War II comedy. Sure.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, you know, it has been done.

Bruce Boxleitner: My buddy Fine Kusatsu was my nemesis. He was this crooked Japanese officer that was doing every black-market thing he could do on the side. And we were in the Philippines. It was in the Philippines. We shot it in, outside of Jacksonville, Florida. We had a lot of jungle area there.

00:45:00

Bruce Boxleitner: We had a, young leading lady. I think she was in one thing as I can remember. I think she went back to theater. We, scared her to death. anyway, I played Charlie Rhodes. I had been drummed out of the Flying Tigers through, a false thing. And I was. I ran a bar in, Manila and the Japanese invade and I Have to get out. And I've got this. My piano player. We were sidekicks and. And, he was,

Susan Lambert Hatem: It was clearly a Casablanca takeoff, too.

Bruce Boxleitner: We had every homage you could find. All those. All those movies. Even the Flying Tigers, John Wayne's Flying Tire. And we had everything. I had a white sports coat on with a white beater T shirt underneath it. Okay, So a little cigar going. Yes. Clyde was so wonderful in it, too. But we. We actually blew up an entire freight ship and sunk it in the harbor. And it caught the trees on fire and everything. they kept yelling, keep rolling, keep rolling. Anyway, like I said, we could have burned Jacksonville to the ground.  

Then we had the sort of Dirty Dozen. These guys were all in the loony bin. It was kind of an insanity ward. And so we had these two big weightlifting brothers that talked the same time. I forget what their names are. they were some. Some wrestling.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Dude, that sounds insane.

Bruce Boxleitner: And we turn into Rhode’s Raiders. It is hilarious. We put together all these old parts. They would have been great toys for kids of old airplanes and trucks and tanks. And we put them m. All mismatched together. We had the machine shop going all night long with, let's see. Andrew Sisters, Bugle Boy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: You know, Boy from Company B. And, I think the show could have gone. Universal loved it. And I think then I think Glenn somehow scuttled it with his relationship there. Universal, they had a lot invested in that. We had a great love story in there, too, between me and a woman who was posing as a nun on the, Until she.

Susan Lambert Hatem: As they do as.

Bruce Boxleitner: Until she wasn't anymore. And then she was a OSS agent. I was forever trying to find Scarecrow again.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. Do you remember working with Angie Dickinson on, Policewoman?

Bruce Boxleitner: Yes, I do. That's the kind of guys I played. Adults starred on the TV series. Not the kids today. It's the young people. Or at least it has been in the last. The 2000s here. The younger ones and the adults are the. No, we still had Quincy or Beretta. We still had all the cop shows and we had all the, sitcoms. It was still the parents, you know, they'll cause me.  

And so 70s policewoman Angie Dickinson. I actually got an, indication. First of all, I was in absolute awe of her. I was scared to death I was going to actually hurt her and. But there's another dame for you sitting there. So where are you from, kid? You know, she was with them. M. All. All the tough guys. Okay. She worked with all of them. And she was always playing those kind of gals. And, and she was great. And I realized for the first time what kind of. How, what kind of work that was to be the lead in a TV series as well. Because my last night was the night that I was going to kill her underneath the, Santa Monica Pier.  

It was Friday night, that magical Friday night I'm talking about. And we're on location and it's cold and wet. And Jim, James Wainwright saves the day by shooting me at the last moment. I've got her down there, I've got a knife to her, and I'm like this crazed, drugged out whatever. And, probably got some kind of monologue there. And, why my mommy didn't like me or something, you know, that makes me become a psycho.  

We're sitting in the car. In a car parked right next to the pier while they're lighting and changing the angles and things like that of the camera and, and lenses and things. And she's busily. I thought she knew all her lines. I thought, oh, my God, she doesn't know her lines now. what I didn't realize is this was the last night on this episode. She's got Monday morning staring at her and she's trying to bone up on what do I do in the next episode.  

It blew my mind, the concept. I'm going, wow, she's already. She's already left me basically, and she's, you know, onto the next thing. Is that what it's like? And, yeah, that's what it's like. Good people. Those were all. It was a wonderful time to come into the business, I think. you know, there was a lot of the big movie stars in the. Twilight's careers were doing television series like the Garner went back and forth successfully.

00:50:00

Bruce Boxleitner: Jack Klugman. Then of course you had Robert Blake. I did Beretta. First thing he does, he takes. I walk up to him. They're introducing me to him. And so in character, I can't say the last word. But, “hey, kid,” he's looking up, up and down. He's looking up and “They tell me you're a good actor. I think you're a piece of ----".  

I think. I think my knees started wobbling and I thought I was about to faint. I used to watch Beretta, that stupid birdie on, shoulder at home with my parents. This blew my mind that I'm standing here doing it and he calls me a piece of s---. You know what I'm saying?

Sharon Johnson: So were you.

Bruce Boxleitner: I later got to know him? He was neighbors with me at a place called Hidden Hills, where we used to live. We used to go ride horses together. I never mentioned that I was there. That was before he killed his wife. Okay, so that's enough.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay.

Bruce Boxleitner: All right. Yes.

Sharon Johnson: Well, first of all, I didn't. I never would have thought that of Robert Blake as a horseman. So that's very interesting.

Bruce Boxleitner: He was in those old B movies. He played, Little Beaver. Never called him Little Beaver. Apparently he would go murderous rage along with Red Rider in the Wild Bill Elliot movies. Yeah, he was a child star. He. Lot of westerns.

Sharon Johnson: And so, when you came to Hollywood, it was during the time when there was still the contract system that studios still put.

Bruce Boxleitner: Yes, it was.

Sharon Johnson: Were you ever under contract with any of the students?

Bruce Boxleitner: I was briefly, for MGM. I waited a year to do How the West was Won. We did the pilot. It was like eight months later, nine months. We didn't do the rest of it. And so I kind of had to sign on. I mean, Kitty went and did a thing called Super Train or something like that. And Chips. She did an episode of Chips in MGM. everything I did, it was all MGM and sign with them.  

So that was kind of the last dying gasp, you know, of the studio system, which, you know, I think, just knowing myself, I probably would have really liked that, to be a part of a studio. I remember Jimmy Stewart talking about it. And, you know, they do 15, 20, 30 pictures a year. They stuck you in things sometimes maybe weren't the best, the highest quality, for you. But everything you did was learning to. Learning your craft and doing your craft.  

And, they went to schools for riding, dancing, fencing, whatever was required, you know, and elocution, all that stuff. So, I think I would have liked that old studio system days. you know, there was some. I always heard, like Angie and those guys, they all talked about this stuff, you know, and how different it was then. That's why it sounds like me now. I'm going. I'm them now.  

It's all become a business I almost don't recognize anymore. We don't even use those big old cameras anymore. Everything is a small little thing on a, yeah, on a tripod. A little tripod. And it's. It's all digital now. Not used to big cans of film being put in. Oh. You know, felt like you were making something. Yeah. And then. Or you're doing a scene and you hear this. We had a short ends. They put in a short ends. And my best part of my performance just went.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Anyway, Melissa and I talk about that we were at film school at the same time when it was still film and transitioning to video and digital. And I appreciate that I got to sort of be in both.

Bruce Boxleitner: I gotta tell you, I. More DPS I talked to all started with film. Even in film school. My son, Lee did. He did film school here in Hollywood. We were talking about this the other night, watching something, a streaming movie. And, it's all dark. It's so dark. You can't. And there's some emotional scene going on. You want to see the eyes, you want to see the people. Right. And, there was always some kind of source lighting. Is it moonlight? Is it something? But it's always something, you know, Film noir. Look what they did back in the 40s. No budgets at all. Just in black and white movies. Some of the greatest films in history are made in that period.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Bruce Boxleitner: But, more DPs. I talked to Ah. Or you hear him ask what was it like when we used film? Must have been so. Must have been really. So.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It was really something. What's next for you?

Bruce Boxleitner: I'm doing an audiobook for, Edgar Rice Burrough’s story -  John Carter of Mars. I'm one of a couple of other actors doing. I just do little things here and there. I've got Blue Ridge, who was just on. I'll be going back in that next February, I heard. And, anything could come up. Right. I'm trying to. You know. It's slower when you're this age. It is.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and it's also just slower time. I mean.

00:55:00

Bruce Boxleitner: Yeah. But you know what I understand? I. All those old guys I got that I worked with, I understand them more and more now. And I was just a pup, you know, just a punk and there. And you know, it's just in. And it's been marvelous when, you have a few highs like, Scarecrow and Mrs. King. it's a treasure I always have. I'll always have that, you know. And I sure Katie feels the same way. You imagine coming off of the phenomena of Charlie's Angels. We'll know what that's like when you're in the. The biggest thing going. You're the biggest phenomena in medium such as television reaching millions of people every night. And that's.  

It's crazy. I have no regrets. There were bad decisions made. Everyone has them. Maybe went the wrong way once, but I think I did more. Went the right way more times than not. You know what I'm saying?

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's good.

Bruce Boxleitner: It's, crazy as that is, but I appreciate this. And, we finally got it done.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know. I'm so excited.

Bruce Boxleitner: It's going to be a big two-parter. Right, Kevin?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. Kevin's like, I can't wait to edit this.

Bruce Boxleitner: I'm going to take the knife to that guy like you can't believe. It looks like a three-minute commercial. It. You can find me at BoxleitnerBruce. And if it has a blue check, I want to emphasize it as a blue check. That's me.

Sharon Johnson: Excellent.

Bruce Boxleitner: A couple other guys out there, we can't seem to get rid of them. They just keep cropping back up. But they're always asking for money eventually, if you send the so and so money, I just want to ward off all fans, Scarecrow, whatever. that there's people out there that are trying to get your money and it's ridiculous. I would never ask. And it's been great talking to you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It has been so great talking to you. Thank you so much.

Sharon Johnson: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Can't thank you enough.

Bruce Boxleitner: My pleasure.

Sharon Johnson: Yes.

Bruce Boxleitner: Thank you. You too. Kevin. I'm not picking on you, man. I really, I love sound people. Anyway, take, care.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right.

Bruce Boxleitner: You too.

Sharon Johnson: All right.

Bruce Boxleitner: Adios.

Sharon Johnson: For today's audiography, find out more about bruce boxleitner@facebook.com boxleitner Bruce and Instagram. Also Oxleitner Bruce and he's on cameo.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So cameo.comboxleitnerbruce I want to shout out again the Ultimate Fans Guide to Scarecrow and Mrs. King, the book written by the three fans that we have a whole podcast about, please go check it out. The link will be in our description.

Sharon Johnson: If you're a fan of Scarecrow and this is King and you don't have a copy of this book, you need to go get it right now because.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Are you really a fan if you don't know that book?

Sharon Johnson: That's right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You're certainly not the ultimate fan.

Sharon Johnson: That's right. Exactly. And we're saying this even though we have absolutely no financial support.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We get nothing from that.

Sharon Johnson: Yes, exactly. We just, we just really love the book, so.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We really love the book and the people who worked on it so diligently for so many years.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That was amazing, Sharon. What a treat.

Sharon Johnson: Another fantastic chat with another fantastic guest. It just, it just keeps getting better and better.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, I was reminded as we were talking and he was telling stories and particularly about the sort of the fun of an 80s set. But one of the reasons I really like Bruce Boxleitner and many of the roles he plays, maybe not the murderous, abusive guys, which, you know, of course is a staple of 70s and 80s, television. But I was reminded of Linda Bloodworth Thomason in our interview with her. We talked about the importance of benevolent masculinity as role models. And I think that, there's a little of that coming off of. I think that's one of the appeals of Lee Stetson. It's very masculine, but ultimately basically reigns in some of that. To be a benevolent protector and sort of a tonic masculinity, instead of toxic masculinity.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, I agree. It's not something you always find sometimes, a lot of times it maybe just tends to go a little bit too far. But it definitely did not. And Scarecrow and Mrs. King, it's probably one of the reasons for its long-term appeal.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, I think so. And I think there is something to be said for a star that will co-star with a female lead and let her remain the lead.

Sharon Johnson: Right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And that's true of Scarecrow and Mrs. King.

01:00:00

Susan Lambert Hatem: And that is not true on either Moonlighting or Remington Steele. Now those are different shows, and Remington Steele is named Remington Steele, but Scarecrow and Mrs. King is named Scarecrow and, Mrs. King. And I think that Scarecrow and Mrs. King remains more equal for longer throughout the show than either Moonlighting and Remington Steele does in the whole. For their whole series.

Sharon Johnson: True. But Kate Jackson did have the producer credit. Tool in her toolbox. Yes, Tool in her toolbox.

Susan Lambert Hatem: In her toolbox.

Sharon Johnson: I can't say toolbox.

Melissa Roth: Why can't you say in her toolbox?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Either way, yes, you're right, it helps to be the producer. But she also got called out as all of the women in these, you know, sort of coupledom, shows often did for being difficult on the set. And it feels like difficult on the set was, I want to have a creative voice in the running of my show.

Sharon Johnson: True. And they fortunately hired an actor who played the part well, and also ended up being a great co-star.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Melissa Roth: And they are. There's just. They're magic together.

Susan Lambert Hatem: They're pretty freaking magical together. Every time I go back and watch it, I'm like, holy crap. They're just magical.

Melissa Roth: You just want to watch them being together. Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Okay. I guess that's it for this episode. So as always, we hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch, all of which will lead us forward toward being amazing Ladies of the 21st century.

[Music] [Singing] Amy Englehardt: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

01:01:48

‍