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A Different World and Beyond | Neema Barnette's Trailblazing Journey

Melissa Roth: Weirding Way Media.  

I learned another lesson during Frank's place that so many Black actors are so broken and damaged that when you give them a little attention, they don't even know how to take it.

[Music][Singing] Amy Englehardt: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Melissa Roth: Welcome to eighties tv, ladies, with your fabulous hosts, Sharon Johnson and Susan Lambert Hatem.

Sharon Johnson: Hello, I'm Sharon.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I'm Susan. We are super thrilled for today's guest. She is an Emmy winning artist who has one of the most incredible television directing resumes in Hollywood.

Sharon Johnson: Prominent and prolific director, writer and producer Neema Barnett has engaged audiences with a body of compelling socially and politically charged work that defies the narrow stereotypes of African Americans usually depicted in entertainment. For over 30 years, she was the first Black woman to ever direct a sitcom and the first Black woman ever to get a three-picture deal.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Ms Barnett grew up in Harlem and started working in theater in New York. She went on to direct over 50 television shows and movies and was the producing director for the first season of Ava Duvernay and Oprah Winfrey's Queen Sugar.

Sharon Johnson: And she started in eighties television, working on such amazing ladies shows like it's a living and a different world. Neema Barnett, welcome to 80s TV ladies. We're so happy to talk with you today.

Neema Barnett: Well, thank you, Sharon. I'm excited to be on 80s TV Ladies podcast, you know, I'm excited to be here. My whole career started in the eighties when I got accepted to AFI women's directing workshop and went from Harlem to Hollywood and changed my life. So the eighties was an interesting time for me. So I'm happy to be on board.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank you so much. You were one of the first amazing eighties ladies that were on our list.

Neema Barnett: Wow.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Almost from the beginning.

Neema Barnett: Well, thank you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm honored because you were groundbreaking and were on so many great eighties ladies shows.

Melissa Roth: Yes, a very powerful cv, Miss Barnett. Yes.  

Neema Barnette: Well, thank you. Thank you. Don't ask me how I did it, but I know, it's interesting because, you know, I started off in theater, and, when I got accepted to AFI, the first thing I did was call Jean Firstenberg and said, well, can't you affiliate the program with someone from New York? Because, you know, I went to the original high school performing arts. So the only people I knew in Hollywood were out of work actors who didn't go to college, like me, and all flew to Hollywood to, you know, start their acting career. So they couldn't be any help and she said to me, Neema, the whole thing is, you have to come to Hollywood. So I packed my bag and I went from Harlem to Hollywood and did my thing. But the interesting thing is, after I got my first job on, my AFI film, which took me a year to finish, was an after school special about Donna Cheek, the first Black equestrian rider, and her struggle to get into the Olympics. She played herself, so maybe that's why nobody else wanted to do it. But anyway, I got the gig after that. That was a daytime Emmy. I don't know how, but it was an interesting journey, you know, coming from theater, you think you're the boss, you know? And so when I did, the Donna Cheek’s story, I had a DP, a male DP, who was very chauvinistic. And I didn't know very much because back then, the women's directing workshop, they didn't give you any lessons on film. You put your hand in a hat, you took a number, and then your turn came.

So he would ask me, where do you want the camera? And being the little I was from New York, I kept telling him to move, oh, I don't like it there. I don't like it there. I didn't know much, but I knew I was his boss about seven times. I said, okay, leave it there. And then I'll tell you if I want to change my mind again, you know. And it was after that that I knew I had to learn lenses and everything else because being a woman, particularly a woman of color, they were going to question me around every corner. So I had to, you know, know my stuff. But when I started my AFI film, like, I would shoot Lawrence Hilton Jacobs. And then I told the DP, okay, let's go. And he said, no, Neema, now you shot him. You have to turn the camera around, and you have to shoot the person that he's talking to. I said, oh, okay. And that's how little I knew. But then there was a woman, Barbara Corday, who was the president of Columbia television at the time. And, I thought, well, since I did theater, maybe I should start off trying to observe on sitcom. Cause sitcoms are kind of like, you

00:05:00

Neema Barnett: know, theater. And so I got to observe under Tony Singletary, who was directing what's happening now. And I gave him my little reel, which consisted of my AFI film and that after school special. And the executive producer said, all her stuff is too much like David Lynch or John Cassavetes. You know, she could never do tv, blah, blah, blah. So there was a Black woman who was the assistant to the executive producers, and she took my reel, and she went into Barbara Corday's office and showed it to her. Barbara Corday called up those executive producers and said, give that girl a job. So they had to give me a job. And the first day on the set, they all came running out and said, Neema, you know, we did our research, and we found out that there's never been a Black woman who ever directed a sitcom before. And I said, oh, my God, this is terrible. I don't know what they expected me, what kind of response they expected, but so that's the day I made history, because I was the first Black woman to ever direct a sitcom. I'll never forget it. Of course, the stage manager was a white guy, very chauvinistic. And I remember going in the bathroom and, shedding a tear or two in the bathroom, and Shirley came on. I don't know if you guys know, remember Shirley from what's happening now.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Your episode was called Shirley's Little Sister.

Neema Barnett: Oh, my God. I did your homework. Yes. And, you know, that episode did get nominated for NAACP award. It was their first nomination in all the years they ever. Because I put my two-cent in. Now, I didn't know I wasn't supposed to put my two cent in the television, but I did, because Shirley's little sister, right, she was a big sister to a woman who had a lot of children. And my complaint was, just because she has a lot of children, that doesn't mean she's a bad mother. You know, she volunteered her kids to be in the big sister program on, on. They looked at me like I was on crack. But, I got things changed, you know? And Shirley came in and she said, what's wrong? And I said, well, you know, nothing. I'm okay. You know, that stage manager, he's a little tough. She said, don't you worry, Neema. We got you. Yeah. So, you know, the cast had my back. That's 100%. Yes. And we did the show. And, I learned a lesson in that show that, you know, my people had my back, and a lot of women, no matter what color they wore, had my back. And we're happy to see that I was there.  

So I went on, and that gave me strength to fight a lot of the battles that I fought after that. And then they decided not to publicize it. They took all these photographs of me and Columbia pictures. They were going to publicize it, but then I guess they decided not to because I think I heard that they were embarrassed that no Black woman had ever directed a sitcom up to that point. Debbie Allen had directed fame, but that was film. That was my first experience that really taught me to fight the battle for image control and fight the battle for balanced images, because people were hungry for it, you know, and that a lot of people were happy that I was there, and they had never had that experience before working with a woman director or a Black woman director. There were a few, but very few Black women or women of color at that time. Very few women, period.

Sharon Johnson: You know, we've certainly been seeing that as we're looking back at, the shows that we've covered so far. And, yeah, things have changed, but not nearly enough, but it's happening.

Neema Barnett: Oh, yes, big change. You know, I'm sitting here being interviewed by you wonderful, beautiful, smart ladies. I tell you, I didn't think I lived to see it. I was born in 59. I didn't think I lived to sit in front of you ladies to take meetings with female executives, you know, to read scripts that are, female driven, where the woman is not the victim, you know? it's. I thank God every day that I lived to see it, and the battle was worth it, you know, just to see your smiling faces.

Sharon Johnson: Well, first, I want to admit that, I was born in 58.

Neema Barnett: Oh, okay.

Sharon Johnson: Just so you're aware.

Neema Barnett: Well, you look fantastic.

Sharon Johnson: As do you. As do you. But going back a little bit, was it always your intent or desire to direct as opposed to be a performer or be in any other part of film or television or theater?

Neema Barnett: I've always been a director. You know, when I was in high school, performing arts, there was an African American teacher. Her name was Vinnette Carroll, and she was a Broadway director. She directed don't bother me, I can't cope. She came from the islands, and, I had never seen a woman director, never mind Black woman director. Never mind a Black woman director with such a presence that talked like this, you know, and wore a silver. A piece of silver jewelry in her natural, organic hair. Vinnette Carroll was a force to be reckoned with.  

00:10:00

Neema Barnett: And Glenn Turman was a senior. When I got accepted, I was, like, 14, and he was a senior. And, so Vinnette Carroll had a group called Urban Arts Corps. And that group, she picked some of us from high school before, which included Chip Fields, Kim Fields mother, who was raised in the building next to me, and who I coached to for audition for performing arts. Glenn Turman, Melvin, you know, several of us. Cynthia Jones, and we would go around to the prisons and to different, you know, schools and stuff, and we would perform these plays. And I got a job at the Harlem Y(MCA) as drama and dance director back then, and, I started doing the plays. You know who else was working there? Renée Watson. Remember her? She was the star of the eighties. Yes. Renee was at the Harlem White with me, and I was a drama dance director, and I started directing the kids in the same plays that. That we were doing with Vinette Carroll. And I said, oh, this directing thing is kind of nice. It came easy to me. Of course, I was copying her, but, you know, I really liked it. And so that was my first introduction into directing, and, I enjoyed it. It came easily. And so while I was in college, they had a workshop in Harlem called the Frank Silvera Writers Workshop. And that's where Ntozake Shange workshopped For Colored Girls. Richard Wesley workshopped The Mighty Gents and a couple of his plays that were on Broadway. Morgan Freeman was there, a lot of people were there. And so I went down there and I volunteered in the director's group. And so that's how I learned. I directed my first play, The Girl Beneath the Tulip Tree, which was written by a professor at NYU. And I called all, my friends from performing arts, and we did the play. And Vinnette Carroll came and she said, darling, I think you have a taste for this directing thing, but I think you've been living in the art world too long. You know, truck, drivers don't dress like that. You gotta get in the real world. So, you know, but I was. I was happy that she thought I could do it, and I just. It was. It came easily for me. So I've always been a director. I've had two jobs all my life, directing and teaching. And they have a lot of similarities. Sit down. Shut up. move over. Okay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Stand there.

Neema Barnett: Yep. And so I've always been a director, you know, and then I joined third world cinema New York, an organization started by the late and wonderful Cliff Frazier and Ossie Davis, where they place you with people in the film business, give you a stipend, you know, to get you started. So they placed me in editing with two Italian, commercial editors, Paul Romano and Alan Rosec. They did all the Coca Cola commercials. Ridley Scott was doing commercials back then.

It must have been four weeks into me rolling that film bin. I got a pain in my chest. I got off the bus and went to Harlem hospital. Thought I was having a heart attack. I was strained from, you know, winding those film bins. I went in next day, I said, okay, I'm done. I'm done with the editing. I'm a director. I can't sit in this dark space anymore, you know?

But I learned a lot in that editing room. That really helped me a lot when I got out to California and started directing film, because, especially in television, it's interesting to learn to shoot, to cut. And when you know how to edit, you know how to cut corners, you know, and you also know what you need to tell the story. So that was a very good experience for me. I love theater, too. I just love directing. I love what I do. I love telling stories that are meaningful. And, you know, working in television, it was, It was exciting. You know, it was exciting back then for me. Like I said, a lot of people looked at me like I was on crack. Like, who is this young girl? I was a kid, and, I'd never been an ad or never been a script supervisor. I was always a director. And I think to this day, I haven't learned that I'm not the boss. So I'm always putting my two cent in and fighting for, you know, a decent cut of something, you know, because we, the actors, the crew, and the writers, we make the movie, we make the show. You do your cut, and then you have to hand it over to the executive producers, and they. It's like, okay, you did your job, now give it to me, and I can make it better. But a lot of times, that doesn't happen, you know? So my union has made allowances for that. Now we have what we call directors creative rights, which I have used twice. I used it on Raising Dion, and I used it on Genius Aretha, where you get the guild involved, and you're allowed to go through every facet of your show, not just your cut. You could fight for your cut. They have to respond. you're in all the post production, and it really. I like Genius Aretha. I'm so proud of my two episodes. And people say, how did it come out like that? It came out like that because I made a lot of enemies, and I was in every. Every facet.

00:15:00

Neema Barnett: So to answer your question, Sharon, yes. I've always been a director. Never wanted to do anything else, and.

Susan Lambert Hatem: A little bit of a fighter. So what were you fighting for in Aretha?

Neema Barnett: Oh, girl, that's another show. Oh, boy. Well, briefly, you know, I was excited. I took. Took the job because I didn't know, Susan Lori Parks, I knew of Anthony Hemingway nothing but heard nothing but great things about Anthony. I love the cast and I love Aretha. You know, every Saturday growing up, all I did, my girlfriend Peggy Ann and I, we go get Sherman's Barbecue and go to the Apollo at twelve noon, pay $5 and stay there till midnight. And we saw everybody. I would do that from the age of 14 to 20. Even when I was in college, we still, I saw every artist that you could ever imagine.

Sharon Johnson: Wow. Wow.

Neema Barnett: Yeah. including Aretha Franklin. So when I got down there, the script was leaning toward making Aretha's father the father of her first child, which had been proven that he was not, you know, he was a ladies man, et cetera. But he also was one of the first, strongest civil rights leaders in the country. In fact, Doctor Martin Luther King was his mentee at one time. They begged me to do the two episodes because it was about young Aretha.

Neema Barnett: Little Aretha. And since I was known to be an actor's director, you know, I'm sure, you know, they wanted a woman, so they could probably blame me for any inaccuracies that go wrong, you know, but I was not in for that. I didn't come down there to make a movie about her father perhaps impregnating her. I came down there to make a movie about Evita. So the battle started. Cynthia wasn't happy with the script. Neither were any of us. You know, Pauletta Washington, who's now a good friend of mine, played beautifully, Aretha's grandmother. And, for example, there was a scene where grandmother was sitting in the living room. I changed the whole thing. I don't know if you guys saw it, but now she was in the kitchen, I changed it. Original scene where she was in the living room and Lila Rita came in and said, oh, granny, you know, aunt so and so said, I may have a baby inside me. And so the grandmother said, oh, really? And they, Courtney came in, who played the father, Courtney Vance, and was supposed to say, what's wrong? And so grandmother said, well, aunt so and so said, aretha, may have a baby inside her. And so his line was, well, maybe it's God's will. Well, I called up, Pauletta. I said, Pauletta, I'm a fan, I'm directing these two episodes, but we have to talk about this scene. I don't think any grandmother, I don't care what color they are. Who raised their grandchild for twelve years, sent her on the road with her son for two months, and she came back pregnant. Would take it like that. No grandmother would do that. So we rewrote the scene, and it wound up being, Pauletta taking Courtney in the room, slapping the hell out of him, saying, you were supposed to watch her, you know, on and on and on. And we rewrote the entire scene. And Pauletta got an NAACP nomination for that scene. And that was just one of many situations during those two episodes that we had to go through. You know, that was, Ron Howard and Brian Glazer. Imagine was also national Geographic. And, I wasn't very impressed with either of them. I can say that publicly. They would say things to me like, you know, we did, Einstein, and we did Picasso, you know, and Einstein, he had sex with his secretary. And I was like, well, what the hell does that have to do with Aretha Franklin? Einstein's not Aretha Franklin. And like I said, I didn't come down here to make this kind of movie. And I refused. The producers didn't. I guess they were scared of me. They were never on the set. One of them was on the set. I know she hated being on the set. She was trying. I overheard her say, I'm trying to control Neema. And she didn't know I was behind her. And I said, I tapped her and said, you're wasting your time. But there was another scene, if you look at the episode where, they wanted children circuit, and it was written as if he was in one bed, she was in another bed. He had his underwear on. She gets up and said, my stomach hurts. It looked very sketchy. So I spoke to Courtney. I said, we have to change that. And I have to say, the cast had my back 100%, and Cynthia was fantastic to work with. And so they were all work. And so I rewrote it, and I told him that, I'm going to have you shining your shoes. Because I remember my father used to hand shine his shoes then that's why I'm going to do it in two shots. One with you shining your shoes, one with you in the bathroom. He's fully dressed. He has his suspenders, his pants on. He's shaving. And through the mirror, you see little Aretha get up out of the bed and walk toward him. Become a two shot with him in the foreground, her in the background, and she says, daddy, my stomach hurts. And he hands her the alka selzter  

00:20:00

Neema Barnett: drink that I told you about hanging out last night. Now go get dressed, because God doesn't wait for anybody. So that was the scene. cut to. I get a call from the producer, the one that tried to control me. Neema, where's the footage? Where's the footage? I said, call the editor. So she calls the editor, where's the footage? The editor said, that's it. This is footage. So I thought to myself, checkmate. Okay, done and done. One shot. One shot. Not going out like that. Good luck. And we had the great luck of getting Ron Howard's editor for the second set of editing, who is African American editor, who's excellent, who won an Oscar for cutting A Beautiful Mind. And I worked with him on Raising Dion, and he came in, he had a little time. He was on his way to England to cut Ron Howard's new film, and he came in and he recut both of my episodes back to the original way. And they couldn't say anything to him because he's Ron Howard's editor. So wound up being a good situation, you know? I mean, they hated me to. The point is, when it was ready to come out, they called my agent and said, well, make sure Neema doesn't, we don't want her doing any publicity for her two episodes, because. Which I let go. I didn't care as long as my cut was locked. And I was happy with it. I just wanted my shows to be good, and they were. So it was a battle that once again showed me that, unfortunately, a lot of production companies, and particularly white production companies who decide to do stories about people of color are not really used to the people of color that they hire coming in with an opinion, coming in, contradicting them with certain things, because it's like, on Raising Dion, you know, I had issues with the star and her image as a young Black woman, and the show runner was like, well, you know, my husband is cuban. Well, ok, ok. So what does that got to do with a Black woman? I don't get it. You know, they get insulted, but. No, but it doesn't matter to me. I go, I battle on, and as long as I get the job done and I get my point across, everything is not worth fighting for, but some things are. Aretha, Franklin story was worth fighting for, and we all fought for it. And I think it came out, you know, well, I mean, he was a womanizer, but even in my two episodes, I made them put in a scene that he was also a strong civil rights leader. He was not only a womanizer, you know, he was a civil rights leader, and he did a lot more than just run after women. And I'm very proud that in my two episodes, we got that in. Yeah. And it wasn't easy, but it's okay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: How do you decide when to fight?

Neema Barnett: It depends on the subject, you know. Huh? It depends on how strongly I feel, you know, like in Raising Dion, season one, which I'm very proud of my two episodes, too. I had to fight very hard for those. But, you know, the showrunner had no idea how Black women lives about Black culture. You know, she was a single mother whose husband just died. There was no. Nothing about her parents or her aunt or any extended family that came and put food in the refrigerator or help her before she got a job, work like that. You know what I mean? And she said to me, well, her mother is mad at her. Yeah, okay. But she's got a little baby, and her husband just died. And I'm a mother, and I don't care how mad a mother is. If her daughter's husband just died and she's in trouble and needs a job, the family's gonna be there. You see what I'm saying? So it was just that battle, or, like, she's a dancer. There was no Black artwork on the walls. Listen, I went to the original high school performing arts. I have a lot of dancer friends, you know, it was just a lot, a lot going on. And she was trying to make. She said, I'm trying to make a show that everyone can, relate to. I said, everyone will relate to it if it's good. Everyone related to Boys in the Hood, which was an all Black movie, but it was good. It was about human beings. And you're telling a story about a Black mother who has a black kid who is a superhero. Who do you think the first people are who are going to watch? Yeah, you know, it has to reflect reality, which, if you look at the original, short, that Dennis Liu, who is the Asian American, very talented young director who did the original short, if you look at his short versus how it wound up and who was in the lead, it was a big difference, you know? But Michael, Jordan was involved, and he played the deceased father. He was wonderful. Unfortunately, I didn't get to work. He didn't work on my episodes, you know, but, he was very supportive. And, Macro with Charles King's company was involved. They were very supportive, and Netflix was very supportive. Season one, we had Seith Mann, who is fabulous director and a fabulous person. And, you know, he kind of did the whole book that got the show sold

00:25:00

Neema Barnett: in the first place. And so he had my back 100%. You know, it's important when you do these shows that you're working with showrunners that trust you and have your back and fight for what you're doing is right.

Sharon Johnson: What are some of the other challenges about coming into an established show and doing an episode or trying to, you know, bring it, the authenticity or whatever it may need to tell the story properly?

Neema Barnett: I think that, I'll just give you another example. I did The Equalizer because they were doing a special episode about a Latino mother who was crossing the border with her son because her life was threatened and when she got across the border, they took her son away. I suggested we get an indigenous looking Latino, not a white looking Latino. So we get casting tapes and everybody's blond and blue eyed. So I called the casting director, I said, this is in New York now, okay? This was last year. It's not like ten years ago. And I said, I um thought we were looking for a more indigenous looking Latina. Well, it's hard. I said, it's hard in New York City. It's hard to get an indigenous looking Latina, a brown skinned Latina. I said, wow. Whoa. But we want up. You know, Queen was on our side and we wind up getting someone very talented young women. She was Puerto Rican. But we changed the script because every Latina doesn't speak the same way.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Neema Barnett: You know, so we had to fix that. And, you know, the show came out very good. I knew I wouldn't be back because of the battles that I had to fight to get it done. But it's okay, you know, I was proud of that episode and proud of what I could bring to it. When I did reasonable doubt, I didn't have any battles at all. The script was working. The show runner was fantastic. The cast was fantastic. I just, did my thing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But it sounds like they come to you when they have something that they know needs to be done well and be done sincerely and be done right.

Neema Barnett: Yeah, well, I hope so. Yeah. I usually get little problem areas, you know, they're specific about it, you know. Well, you have to know that the first young lady they cast for Rita Franklin was lighter than me. And when I got down there and you know how you have, Anthony had all the cast photographs up on the wall, I said, who's that? He said, Neema, sit down. You're not going to believe it. That's little Aretha. I said, oh no, Anthony, she can't be Lil Aretha. She's lighter than I am. Who would believe it? They cast it without him. And so we, in fact, we went. I was nervous because my two episodes centered on her. And finally, after shooting a week, they let Anthony recast it. He had to recast, and he had to shoot that entire week over. But this is just an example. And the reason why I'm highlighting it is because, you know, I was a Ron Howard fan. I didn't know Brian Glazer. None, of them came down on the set to meet me while I was working. I didn't really get any respect except from the people who hired me, who never came down. They were very, very, very nice. And now they're doing Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. Gonna be interesting to see how that comes out. And Gina is executive producer. She's not a pushover. So, you know, Gina Blythewood. So I can't wait to see how that comes out because they had thought they had a problem with me, you know, I'm sure it's going to be good because Gina's not going to, you know, go for any okie doke, you know. but I was very disappointed at the treatment and the attitude, you know, and I, think that when we did it with Anthony and myself and the cast, they met their grandmama drunk, you know, they realize got a slap in the face that, you know, I don't care how big time they think they are, you know, there's, there are people, there are talented people of color in Hollywood who work, who are going to fight them back. And it doesn't matter whether you call us back again, what matters is the image control of our people.

Neema Barnett: You know, and also the image control of women in general, you know, always playing the victim, this, that, and the other. It's just a constant. It's changing now, but it was constant, you know, so I don't think they're used to it, you know, still, unfortunately, I guess there's only a few of us who do speak up. You know, I don't expect anybody to, speak up on my behalf. I could do it on my own. And, you know, the directors come and go on television, so we have less to lose. We're in and out anyway, you know, but the actors and other people, they're there for the duration, and so it's not as easy for them to speak up. I don't think they had any people of color executives  in their organization to send down to help. Susan-Lori Parks, who had never show run a television show before she

00:30:00

Neema Barnett: was a playwright. So it was a difficult journey so I think, yeah. it's just one of those things where you. And you just have to fight when you feel it, when it's necessary, when it's just like, oh, no, this cannot happen. You know, I've even used lines like, oh, Black Twitter's gonna kill you if you do this.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But they understand that.

Neema Barnett: Oh, yes. You think so, Neema? You think so? I said, oh, girl, you better fix that.

Sharon Johnson: Nobody wants that.

Neema Barnett: No. Nobody wants Black twitter together. Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And it's Aretha. I'm like, I don't understand. Like, I. This was 2021, right?

Neema Barnett: Yeah. Yep, yep, yep, yep. I was down there maybe about five months. It was a long journey. I did episode two and three, and I'm very proud of those. It was just a battle, battle, battle, battle with everything. With the Martin Luther King character. She cut that out, and my man put it back in. It was just, That's their journey.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, let's take you back to the easier times of eighties television.

Neema Barnett: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: This is, probably a good time to take a break. We'll be back.

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Susan Lambert Hatem: And we're back and better than ever. I'm curious about that moment where you saw your name on television, directed by Nina Barnett.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Did you have that moment?

Neema Barnett: I did.

Susan Lambert Hatem: What did that feel like?

Neema Barnett: I cried. I was shocked. I was more happy to get that $3,500 check because we had been so broke. I mean, at that time, that was the most money that I had ever gotten in a week, you know, directing theater. You lucky if you get that in six months, you know?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Neema Barnett: I felt a sense of accomplishment and I felt a, sense that I did it. You know, I got through it and I learned a lot, you know, and I enjoyed it. You know, there were ups and downs. There were ups and downs through all of it. But it prepared me for when I did Frank's place and wind up getting signed by CAA and then, you know, did a lot of those eighties shows like China Beach and it's a living 7th heaven. Okay. That was another time that they hired me because it was a special episode with Jessica Beale. Yes, Jessica Beale. her high school coach was harassing her sexually. So that's what the episode was about. And I remember the Aaron spelling people sitting me down and saying, nemo, we like your work with actors. We heard that you like to change the lines. You know, let me give you the rules. And Aaron spelling, no one wears hats, no one wears glasses, and no one changes the line. I said, okay. There wasn't even a woman emptying garbage on 7th Heaven. There was not even. There wasn't a purple face or a green face. Just all white faces. you know, it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy. But I found that what I didn't know, I asked because I would feel more stupid trying to pretend that I knew things around people who've been doing it for 20 years that I didn't know. And I think people opened up to me more because I admitted what I didn't know and that I wanted to learn. And then I was really good at what I did know, which is I had a sense of literature. I learned the lenses. I knew how to block because I had blocked in theater, those things. And, you know, I learned as I went. But it was, I think it was a time where I didn't look back. I just kept doing it. I didn't realize what I was doing, you know, when I did Better Off Dead, it in the eighties.

Susan Lambert Hatem: 93, early 93. So 93.

Neema Barnett: Okay, girl, you got it. You know, it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I did a little bit of homework.

00:35:00

Neema Barnett: It's a Living. That was my first one.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So I'm very curious because you did like three episodes of it's a living. And we've covered. It's a living. So we talked to, Paul Kreppel.

Neema Barnett: I'm sure I was the only Black director they asked. I had a great time. I had a great time. They were very open and receptive. Ann was receptive. Shirley Lee Ralph. that was easy for me because that was almost like a play. And, I really enjoyed it when I signed. I did that after I signed with CAA. Ron from CAA, who's in charge of television, he said, you're a Black girl. You got to learn to do every format. I said, I want to do movies. He said, no, you got to do everything. I said, okay. So I did, you know, every format. I did one camera film, four camera tape I did after school special. Then I wound up doing ten two hour tv movies. You know, I just did it. All my AFI film was at the Whitney Museum at the new American Filmmakers series Sky Captain. And David Putnam was there, and he saw it. And so he called me and put me in his new directors program at Columbia pictures. And at that same time, they called me for Frank's Place, because a lot of the Black actors in Frank's Place I knew from Black theater in New York. And Samm-Art Williams, who is a very excellent playwright out of New York, was, one of the co executive producer writers on the show. And he had written this episode called Frank joins the club. And he recommended me. Sam wrote the script, and he was so funny. He said, now, Neema, I want you to act like you don't know me on the set, because I don't want you to get me in any trouble. I said, okay. And so one of the roles was for. I, had suggested Max, Julia and Hugh Wilson, who was wonderful. He didn't know Max Julian. And then I said, what about Ron O'Neill? He never heard of Ron O'Neill. So I brought his superfly, and I showed him superfly because my husband is a Black movie maniac. He has every. He had every movie. and, I said, you should get him. So he got. We got Ron O'Neill. And, I remember, forget the first day, I was so excited. And I went on, you know, to meet him. I said, hi, Mr. O'Neil. My name is Neema Barnett. He was chain smoking. He had his head down, chain smoking. I said, I'm so happy to meet you. He didn't say anything. I said, so I, thought maybe I should say one of his lines from the movie. So I said, I said, your line is still ready. You could get it if you want. He looked up, he said, what did you say? I said, your line is still ready. You could get it if you want. He said, wait, that's my. I said, yeah. He said, who are you? I said, I'm the director. I'm Neema Barnett. I'm the director, and I'm a big fan. I learned another lesson, that the Black actors who I thought was so brilliant, I saw him do, a fellow at the London theater. So I knew he could do more than superfly. And I learned a lesson during Frank's place that so many Black actors are so broken and damaged that when you give them a little attention, they don't even know how to take it. And I was a New York theater snob, looking at these movies, going, why are they doing this? Why are they doing that? Why aren't they doing something better? Then I got out to Hollywood, and I learned through osmosis, I learned the answer. People have tried before us, and people will try after us. It's a hard, tough road. It's a hard battle to fight. And, I treated all those actors with such dignity and glory, you know, like Frances. I would make sure she was the older actress, make sure she always had a seat. And Ron O'Neill was such a gentleman, so fantastic. That episode won an Emmy, you know, and he was the guest star of it. It's called Frank joins the club, where you're not lighter than a brown paper bag, you know? And, Hugh Wilson was wonderful. And I did another episode, and then there was another episode where he had Pam Greer on because I introduced him to Black exploitation film. So he watched Pam Greer and named Pam Greer character, Neema. So I got my name in, you know, one of the episodes. Yeah, it was nice. And one of the executives at Columbia said, you should sign with CAA. I didn't know who CAA was. So when I went for the interview with Mike Ovis, I said, will you have anybody Black? He looked at me, he said, well, we happen to have a Black girl. Just got out the mail room, and I'm gonna put you with her. And Michael Rosenfeld, Sonia, they're going to be your agents. I said, okay, as long as you have somebody Black, because I don't want to be in the slave camp. And he said, okay.

Sharon Johnson: I'm sure no one had ever said anything like that to him before.

Neema Barnett: No, no. And he and I were born on the same day, December 14. He said, oh, my God. So, anyway, that's how that happened. And then that's how I got

00:40:00

Neema Barnett: It's a Living. It was shortly after, after that, doing China Beach rumor peace, which also won a Peabody war where they thought my episode, where they thought the war was going to be over, but it wasn't. I told my agents, I want to do something else. I can't keep doing all these tv shows. So they got me an after school special called Different Worlds. That was in the eighties.

Neema Barnett: That had won a junior Pulitzer prize about a young Black guy and a white girl in high school together, witnessed a murder in a bodega. And I shot it on super 16 in four and a half days. And it won a couple of daytime Emmys in the Peabody Award. And it was that piece that got me better off dead. Got that. It was that taking that step back to do that little after school special, to move forward into two hour movies.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Walking into a room as a Black woman in the eighties, onto a set into room to basically try to get a job or do a job and what that feels like, and how you, how you go from Harlem to Hollywood.

Neema Barnett: Yeah, it was painful.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Well, some of it just kind of, you didn't, as you said, with other things you didn't know, what you didn't know, and you just basically just were yourself and said, hey, you know, this is it. So.

Neema Barnett: That's right, Sharon. That's exactly what I did. You know, I came up at a time where we had leaders, you know, where we were fighting for Black courses in college, where I had poets like Sonia Sanchez and Nikki Giovanni. You know, we had Malcolm X and we had hrap brown and we had leaders. You know, we had The Young Lords in Harlem, Latin group fighting. We had the Panthers still around. So when I got out to Hollywood, I think my politics were kind of set. And so I just was used to confrontations. And I learned when we took over city college, the young lords gave us a course in strategy for revolution. And I took that course when I learned strategy of revolution and I applied it when I came to Hollywood. So that's how I was able to pick and choose my battles and just kind of, you know, maneuver myself through it. Because when I began to walk into rooms, it hit me that I was the only one. Then it hit me that it was important that I need to be there and I don't only need to be present. It's just like you sitting, like Malcolm said, you sit at the table, but that's not enough. You have to have something on your plate and you have to be a diner if you're not a diner. You're just sitting there. It doesn't make any difference. You have to have something on your plate. So I kept thinking about that and just maneuvering myself in. And I think that I came at a time when actors were tired of the furniture pushers directing, you know, a lot of the ads and DP's and people who didn't have as much storytelling experience, you know, as theater directors had. So when I was coming in, they wanted more. They wanted directors who could help them with the story and that I knew I had a sense of literature from theater, and I knew how to break a script down, and I knew how to tell a story. I knew going in the room that, there was a 90% chance that I wouldn't get the job. A lot of times I did get the job. When I did Zora's my name. Zora Neale Hurston piece with Ruby Dee and Lynn Whitfield and Paula Kelly and Oscar Brown junior and a lot of good people. Yeah. When I was doing Zora, when it came time to do this part about Zora losing her benefactor, you know, and going downhill, the producers were like, we don't have time for that. We don't have time for that. I said, oh, no, no, no. I called up the director's guild. I said, hi, huh? My name is Neema Barnett. I'm a new member of the guild. I have a racial situation here. So he came and he made them move their monitors away from me. I said, oh, the director's gil has my back. And that's how I became a fan of the DGA. Describe a little bit more what made.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You call the DGA?

Neema Barnett: And then how they saw tip, I'm going to have Ruby just strip as she's doing a monologue. Just take her pearls off. You take all, not stripped naked, but stripped down as an image of her life going downhill. And they said, oh, we don't have time for that. And I think mainly it was they were behind me, one, which was getting on my nerves, and two, when they didn't want me to do that single shot, which wind up being very powerful of Ruby, who was, you know, phenomenal, doing that monologue, taking her pearls off and everything, it was a bit much for me. And so I think that's what motivated me to call up the director's guild and say, this is the issue. And they said, well, what do you mean? I said, what do I mean? I said, you know, as long as she's singing and dancing, everything is fine. But when it comes to the part of her life, you know, where she was in trouble and

00:45:00

Neema Barnett: she was going downhill. You want to cut that out. And that's an important part of her life. And I'm not going to stand for, you know, being young and crazy, you know, just going off.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Good for you, though. I'm loving that. I mean, that's clearly, you know, it may, as you said, have cost you jobs, but it also got you jobs.

Neema Barnett: Yeah, that's true.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Actors. Remember that.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Producers, when they see it finally done, they're like, okay, fine.

Neema Barnett: Oh, listen, it was such a big hit. It got such great reviews. And you know what makes me the most happiest? I'll tell you. it must have been two weeks ago. I was going through Instagram, and this organization, African American women in film had written. I was on YouTube, and I ran into this piece that Neema Barnett directed called Zora is my name. And she was so impressed with that, she put a piece of it on Instagram, and I thought, that's why I fought. How many years later? I mean, my God, 30 years later, and it's in every library. People still quote it, you know, and in television, work doesn't last that long a lot of times. And to see it on Instagram, of.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All things, you're inspiring a whole new generation with the truth.

Neema Barnett: Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, I went for an interview once in a studio. God wanted to do a story in the Panthers, and he was going on and on and on. And so I said, but it didn't happen like that. And he said, no, I know it didn't happen like that, but that's why I want to tell it. So I got up. I said, well, I guess this meeting is over, because I'm not a distorter of history, you know, that I cannot do. I mean, you know, there's a lot of people in our business that have a lot of nerve, a lot of egos, a lot of overseers of other cultures. And, you run into them mainly when you're dealing with stories about other cultures. So as long as people feel they could be an overseer, I think they feel comfortable. We have so much talent. We don't need overseers now. You know, we need collaborators. If you're going to collaborate, that's fine, but if you're going to oversee, I think you just need to buy a plantation and get some slaves, because nobody wants to deal with the overseer at this point. Yeah. You know, I think that things are changing for the better. My God, a lot better. But there's still issues. Certain shows go on television because of the, content and what they're saying, you know, still a controlling force around, you know. But it's getting better and better. Sorry I went off the beaten track.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Let's talk about A Different World.

Neema Barnett: Okay. Great experience. I was mainly doing Cosbys, and Thad Mumford was one of the executive producers. I was on the contract with Carsey Werner, and when Debbie didn't want to direct the episode, they would fly me out to do it. I did several episodes I was very proud of. They came out very well. One with Glenn Turman, and Denise Nichols got to work with her, and, the kids were great, but different world was a great experience, you know, it was. I had a couple of episodes, like, once they wanted to put a mop on one of the young actresses head, and she was crying, and I had to go in and deal with, I can't remember the line. Producer's name was not very happy with me, but, you know, I fought. We got the mop off of her head.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I bet she appreciated that.

Neema Barnett: She did, she did. But that was a battle, you know? And then they went into Debbie and, well, Neema's not doing what we want to do. Debbie said, well, why are you coming into me? I can't help you, you know. So Debbie had my back, and, oh, and I did Yvette Bowser's first, I think, was one of her first tv, writing show. Who's. Who's now. She's a very famous writer and showrunner. I think I directed one of her first episodes that she wrote, and she was happy, and I enjoyed it. You know, it was fun.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And was that your first time working with Debbie Allen, or had you worked with us before?

Neema Barnett: No, I did not. I worked with her sister on the Cosby show, but I had never worked with Debbie Allen before. I didn't work with her then because she wasn't around. I love Debbie and how she's been able to use her fame to do good. I really enjoyed the Cosby show. It was very creative because, you know, Bill did not like to rehearse. So you come in on Monday, you read the script. And how I got my first episode was my friend had a mother's group, and, I was directing Frank's Place, and, Tom Werner's brother was at Culver Studios and saw me. Peter Werner told Tom Werner about me. And then Jay Sandridge called me during my lunch period into the room and said, you know,

00:50:00

Neema Barnett: I'm Jay Sandridge. I'm, you know, work at The Cosby Show, and I was looking at your episode of, what's happening now? I don't know if you could direct Bill Cosby because he never says the same thing twice. He never moves the same way. And you have all these strange film shots in your sitcom. And I didn't say anything. I said, uh-huh So cut to. I'm in New York directing the play. They called me. They say they want me to come to the set to meet the executive producers and meet Bill Cosby and Queen. So I go up there and I said. They said, well, can you observe? I said, no. I said, I can't observe. I'm directing a playoff Broadway. If you want to hire me, just hire me. And I said, by the way, Mr. Cosby, my friend has a mother's group, and, I was wondering if I could get tickets for them. And he said, you know, every time a woman is pregnant, they always want special treatment. And I said, well, if you were pregnant, you would know how women feel. And he looked at me, he said, what's your name again? I said, Neema, I just met you. He said, oh, yeah, okay, well, that's the show you're gonna do. And he called the writers in, they hired me, and he had them write an episode where all the men get pregnant. And I directed it. And I remember Jay seeing me on the set, stopping me and saying, oh, my God. I heard the episode that, Bill is going to have you do. And aren't you directing a play? Didn't your play go off Broadway? I said, yeah. Oh, well, I'll talk to Terry Gourmet, who's one of the producers, and I think, you know, let them give you another episode. I'll take that episode.  

So then I did my Black women thing, put my hand on my hip, I said, that's okay, sweetheart. I got it covered. I said to myself, you like getting that? When the funny thing was, because that episode got nominated for international monitor award, and they gave the ceremony at city, center. Jay was nominated. All these old guys were nominated. And I won. I won the international monitor war for best directing for The Days the Spores Landed.  

So after I did that, they signed me to a two-year pay or play. And it was great because, like I said, bill didn't rehearse. Come in Monday, like the script, but not like the script. Tuesday we do a rehearsal, a reading. Wednesday we would do rehearsal without him. And Thursday, we would shoot with a live audience, and that was it. So there was really basically no rehearsal, just a little bit, because mainly the scripts weren't ready, and it was almost like live theater. I think that's why I had such a good time, and I enjoyed it so much because it was spur of the moment, you know, and I was able, they let me do whatever I want. I was able to shoot. I shot film style because that's what, I knew, you know, it was exciting in front of a live audience, and Bill had an isolated camera. Cause he never said, he said whatever he wanted. You know, everybody else had to stick to the script, and it took forever to cut an episode. But it was very creative, you know, very creative time. If you come in with creative ideas, it's good. If you don't come in with anything, it's not good.  

So I guess by my husband having done stand up, I knew how to handle Mr. C. It's like you laugh at the jokes that even aren't funny, and then he wears himself out, goes in the office, takes a nap, and then we rehearse everything while he's sleeping, and then he gets back up with a bunch of energy, and then we go again. So that's just like my husband. He did the same thing. So I just said, oh, yeah, mister m c. Maybe you should, oh, you know, go in the office, take a nap, and we'll just go rehearse. Okay. Yeah, good idea. So that's how we got it done. But, I learned a lot, learned a lot about comedy.  

By then, Viacom became a fan of mine, and, they gave me a lot of work in the eighties, and I did Diagnosis Murder with Dick Van Dyke, which was a joy. What a wonderful person. Funny. I was too green to know what not to do. So, you know, some of the dialogue was just so bad and so wordy, I broke out laughing, and Dick would say, what's wrong? I said, I'm sorry, dick, but I don't understand a word you're saying. He said, I don't understand it either. You know, coming from theaters, like some bad writing is just hard to digest, you know, but, yeah, so I was very fortunate. I learned a lot about comedy from these people. Then I got to work with John Ritter on Hoopman in the eighties. Then I got to work with Jason Ritter, his son, on Raising Dion, season one.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's right.

Neema Barnett: He played the villain. That's right. He played the villain. So I thought I brought a picture, and I said, look, that's a picture your father and I directed him. So, yeah, and it was fun. I enjoyed it because every show was different, and I got to fulfill creative juices in a different way. It was challenging, back then. Difficult? Yes, in the fact that you feel the stares, you feel the doubts until you do what you do, and then they feel a little more comfortable. I got more comfortable with my ability as I went on. But what I knew from the beginning, I was very comfortable with, and that's my sense of actors and story,

00:55:00

Neema Barnett: you know, you felt alone a lot. I don't know why. I mean, I guess because I didn't see anybody who looked like me. And, you know, there weren't very many women who were friendly, you know, to me. Then I. When I met with Rosilyn Heller, and of course, you know who. The queen of women's lib, Gloria Steinem. Thank you. Okay. Yes, she was. She was one of the executive producers of better off debt. I got a meeting with Gloria and Rosalind, and they said, what do you think of the script? And I said, well, it's typical, you know, you have the Black girl who's in jail and the white woman who's her attorney. I think it was the first white woman, Black woman movie that lifetime had ever done. And so she said, well, what would you do? I said, I switch it around. I make the Black woman, the attorney who thinks she could do what her boss does, and she reaches the glass ceiling, and the white girl would be the bad girl. And they looked at me, and they said, M so I got my car, and then one of my agents called me. He said, pull over. You got the job. I said, what? Because when he called me first and he said, how to go, I said, I opened my big mouth. I told him what I would. I told him to reverse the whole thing.  

Well, obviously it worked. They hired me, and, I got to do better off there to work with Mare Whittingham and Tyra Farrell. And that movie got rave reviews. And they said, why can't all, lifetime movies be like that? Of course, it had every political issue but the kitchen sink. Because you had Rosilyn Heller and Gloria Stein, you know, great experience. Got to work with Uli Steiger, a great DP. It was a racial issue there with lifetime. You know, they were calling me, telling me I was giving the Black woman more close ups than mayor, which wasn't true. I knew it was a racial issue, but I was directing. I didn't really have time to deal with it, you know, but I just didn't pay him any mind. I just went on and did what I did.  

I got to hire my editor, David Beatty, who cut my AFI fill, and we cut the hell out of it. We did a great job. We worked hard, and it was exciting, you know, I had my friend Julie Dash, you know, who's fabulous, who did doors of the. She came out to Seattle with me, just for a couple of days to visit. And, it was exciting, you know, doing the movie. I shot it in 18 days. And then they gave me a viewfinder that the whole crew pitched in, which was nice, you know, that's a lovely gift, getting a view. Yes, it was. From the crew. It was. And I was very happy. We had a great time. I mean, you know, if I don't feel comfortable in an environment, I can't do my best. You know, I don't do well creatively with a bunch of people on my back and too many restrictions. And I don't restrict my department heads. I hire them for their specialty, and I let them do it.  

I have, of course, as you know from talking to me this long, I have opinions. What good director doesn't have opinions, you know? But I'm a team player, you know, you can't make a movie by yourself. It's a team. And so we had a great team, and we made it work. And then Gloria, of course, being famous, she took it all the way. All this publicity and everything. It was fun.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, my gosh.

Neema Barnett: Yeah, I was proud of it. It came out to be a good movie. It's a classic. You know, Mare was fabulous. And when I met her the first day, she hugged me. She said, I'm so glad you flipped that around. Gloria told me you the one that flipped it around. And she played the hell out of that bad girl. You know, I'm sure she loved it.

Sharon Johnson: She's always playing the good girl, if you will, the sort of down the earth, south, salt of the earth kind of character.

Neema Barnett: That's correct, Sharon. No, she loved it. She worked it, too. It was a joy. And Tyra worked it. A lot happened. You know, Mare got pregnant in jail. It was a mess. It's a lot going on in that movie. People like Rosilyn and Gloria and Jean Firstenberg at AFI, who became like a second mother to me. These are women that really championed me and helped me. And during my downtimes, they were there along with my team of friends, like Ayoka Chenzira and Julie Dash and Michelle Materre and Euzhan Palcy and all these early women of color filmmakers that we were all friends and we would get on the phone and, you know, console each other and talk about our experiences.  

I mean, I think it's important, particularly for women to have a tribe. Like, you guys are a tribe, you know, you have to have your tribe. And so I, mean, that helped me quite a bit during the hard, difficult times of sexism, working in a man's world where everyone around you wants to be the director television, and you come in as a director and you don't know they're, you know, mumbling under their breath and the DP's who want to direct and this and that is, you know, it's. It could be a hot mess sometimes, but like I said, it comes with the territory, you know, and you have to just prove that you're there to tell a story and you respect every job

01:00:00

Neema Barnett: that everyone has and treat them with respect. And I think it'll work out. You know, I came into a lot of difficult times because I was a woman, because I was Black, but it was okay. I knew, you know, you sometimes you could feel when these things are happening and people don't trust you or they don't respect you, or they think you're just there. And I mentioned Warren Adler before, because when I started working a lot, I called him, I said, warren, are, these people just filling a slot? He said, Neema, there's no affirmative action in this business. Because back then there wasn't.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Tell us a little bit about how you got involved with Queen Sugar and, that story.

Neema Barnett: Well, right on the height of me doing all these tv movies and stuff, Gail divas, scattered dreams with Todd Daley and Joe McCraney, Lisa Silverstone. We talked to time. You did?

Susan Lambert Hatem: We did.

Neema Barnett: For Cagney and Lacey, that movie got an AM People magazine and won two emmys. I don't know how I did it. It was a big movie, and I did it in such little time, but I did it and I did it well. It came out great. Anyway, I was at the height of tv movies and my mom got sick. So I went to New York. I left CAA, I left everything. I left my daughter and my husband in LA, too. And I went back home to Harlem to take care of my mother, which lasted five years.

So when I came back, I didn't have anything. I didn't have an agent. I didn't have a job. Gil Gates called me. This was in the late nineties. They didn't have anybody Black at UCLA who had a master's so they asked me to teach. So I took the job to teach once a term there. Then Barbara Corday became head of USC. That's how I was making a living. I was teaching at UCLA and USC. then, Mara Brock called me out of the blue, and she wanted me to direct a block of Being Mary Jane on bet because, that special episode, like you said, with Jill Scott and I didn't have an age or anything, I said, I'll do it. So I did that.  

And Paul Garnes, who is Ava's producing partner, was the UPM on that show. Paul said, you should get Neema Barnett. I just worked with her. The crew loved her. I guess he thought the crew loved me because they all pitched in and bought me t shirts with my face on the front and my saying, cut and print that sucker on the back. So I guess they did love me. That's my saying when I like a good take. Ava called me and she said, I'm gonna offer you this job. You don't have to jump any hoops. You don't have to get approval from anyone. And I'm doing this tv show, and it has all women directors. And I was like, huh? Huh? She said, all women directors. So what could I say? No? I said, of course, I didn't even know what a producing director did, quite honestly. But I said, yes, I'll take it. You know. So that's how I got Queen Sugar, season one.  

And I was teaching it also at AFI. They put me on permanent faculty at AFI. And so I had to leave my little babies at AFI and go to do Queen Sugar. And that was a 13 month journey, season one, you know, with Ava. And, I directed episode three. She did one and two. I did three. And I did episode seven with a group of very interesting filmmakers. Sally Richardson, so young, Kim Kat Candler, Tina Mayberry, Tanya Hamilton, Victoria Mahoney. It was a group, indeed, an, interesting group. And we went on and we made season one of Queen Sugar. You know, it was sweating tears. I will say it wasn't easy, but I had quite a bit of experience in television that I tried to give them as far as what would work and what wouldn't, but also keep what Ava wanted, which was not to do it the regular way, to allow m because these women were talented. They had done movies already, but they had. They were trying to get into tv to make some money for years, and they couldn't do it. So, you know, instead of having a lumacrane, I told them, you know, we'll just put the cameraman on the ladder and have him do a high shot, you know, because you don't have the money.  

And so the ratings came out, and I, started getting calls. But what a joy it was to work on Queen Sugar. What a joy it was to work with all women directors. I'm thinking when Ava completed Queen Sugar was last season. She had called me back to be producing director the final season, but I was booked. I couldn't do it. But, but she's got about 40 something women in the director's guild. She created an army.

Susan Lambert Hatem: She changed the face of television.

Neema Barnett: Yes, she did. Yes, she did.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's the power that. That people in charge can do. And she used it for that.

Neema Barnett: Oh, yes, she did. She is a force to be reckoned with. You know, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant woman.

01:05:00

Neema Barnett: And she changed the face of television, and people don't give her enough credit for that. And there has not been an all woman directing show since Queen Sugar. I doubt if there will be. I mean, Ava got calls from male directors. Why, that's not fair. They complained to the director's guild. You know, how can she have all women? I mean, it was deep, but, you know, Ava persevered, and queen, sugar was a fantastic show. Queen Sugar was special. It was a unique show. I'm honored to this day to have been a part of it, particularly season one, which I think was one of the best seasons. But, you know, I say that personally, but I think that with all the tears and agony that we went through, sometimes you need to go through that creatively to get the best product.  

So I wasn't surprised. Like, I would always tell Ava, don't worry about the budget, because if it's a hit, and it was season two, she got two dp's, two ads, two sets of crews. You know, bottom line is to make it good, and that's what we did. We made it good. And then it went on for, like, six seasons, I think, and made all these women's careers. I mean, Sally is, you know, Sally executive produced at Lakers. HBO show saw so young Kim's name on something. She did a five part special series for Netflix, and Tanya Hamilton was one of the producing director on the Rickey Scott show. They're all doing amazing things. That first season set it off. I mean, every.  

A lot of people are working from the other seasons, too. Ava gave Julie an episode one year and then gave, Ayoka Chenzira, my other old friend, for 30 years episode. She loved it so much. She retired from, Spelman, where she was head of Spelman, and now she's running around directing tv and loving it. I love it, you know? And Julie did women of the movement as well, and a couple of other tv shows. They like it because they're independent filmmakers, you know, Ava changed the face of television, and I adore her. And I always give her credit for reaching out and hiring me and really re energizing my entire career. And you can't say that. Too many people do that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: No.

Neema Barnett: You know, so many people don't remember who was there first and what we did, but she did remember, and I always love her for that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And honor it with action, which is incredible.

Neema Barnett: Oh, yeah. Always with action, you know? And not only that, she didn't leave them hanging, you know, when the directors completed their journey on queen Sugar, she had agents lined up for them. She made sure that they got agents. She got them jobs and agents in the beginning so they weren't left hanging, you know? Right. That's so rare, because even at AFI, I did a master class several months ago with a bunch of students, and, I'm helping them get jobs. They're graduating the thesis film. They're scared to death. They don't know where to go. You know, no one's offering them anything. It's scary.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's a tough time.

Neema Barnett: Yeah, yeah, it's a tough time. I mean, you know, it's important not to leave young artists out in the cold when they leave the wound of school, where it's warm and comfortable in a creative environment. And then you go out in the world, you're like, okay, what do I do now? You know? I mean, I've been told stories by students where their teachers tell them, well, why don't you buy some property? And then you could use the money you make from the property to make your film. And the, girl told me, she said, Neema, my parents took a third mortgage out of the house to send me the AFI. So I don't know what he's talking about, you know?  

I mean, film is the elitist business, you know, when they first mentioned to me, way back in the eighties, well, you have to observe. I was like, oh, no, I cannot afford to observe. I have a little baby girl. I got an actor husband who's out of work. I got to work. When I did the Cosby show, I said, I'm observing on anything. I'll observe. If you hire me, I'm guaranteed a job. And again, they looked at me like I was on crack. But they did hire me. And then I observed, you know, so because you can't leave people hanging out there like that, you know, they don't know what to do. And now it's even more competitive. You know, when I was doing tv, not a lot of people, filmmakers, wanted to do tv. It was looked down upon where I came from, you know, now everybody's doing tv.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Going back to Queen Sugar for just a moment. You mentioned you went there as a director producer. Can you talk a little bit about what the producer aspect of your role was and what you were doing?

Neema Barnett: I was on the set every day, and I tried to create a new paradigm and not use it like the guys used it in the past, but have my position, just be an encouraging position to their vision, but just teach them

01:10:00

Neema Barnett: how to do it on a television budget. And I worked a lot in the producing capacity, just like that on the set. Not money wise, but showing them how, looking at their vision and giving them options, because we didn't have the money for a luma crane or we didn't have the money for a drone. So how else can you get that vision across? And I would give them, several alternatives to that, you know, and encourage them in areas, you know, that they weren't used to. Like So Yong Kim asked me, what does she do? I said, she's a script supervisor. What does a script supervisor do? Because So Yong Kim did her independent movies with her DP, her actor, and that was it. She didn't have a script supervisor. She didn't know what script supervisor did. So introducing them to the tools that they have that a lot of them didn't have when they were doing their independent films so they could focus more on directing. Like, So Yong Kim said, oh, so many words. Even too many words. I said, well, welcome to the world of television. You got two little baby girls. You want to get their college degree, you want to make some money. There's nothing you could do about this verbal diarrhea. It's going to be there, and you just try to put as many images in as you can and keep it moving. And she, you know, she's doing great now. But, you know, these were some of the things I was able to contribute. Long talks going over their shot list, helping them, you know, adjust, helping them.

Susan Lambert Hatem: To succeed, both as becoming television, directors, working television directors.

Neema Barnett: Yes, yes.

Sharon Johnson: And creating an environment that will hopefully encourage them to do the same as they move forward in their lives instead of what seemed to be in the past. Well, I had to go through the tortures of the dam, so you figure it out yourself kind of mentality that seemed to exist before. So, that's amazing. That's really, really amazing.

Neema Barnett: I mean, if you think making a movie is like entertainment tonight, you're wrong. It's more like construction work. You know, it's no joke. You know, if you. If you never took vitamins before, you better take them out. But that is no joke. You know, shooting a show or a movie is no joke. And tv is very fast paced. But, you know, it worked out. It worked out. And the actors were wonderful. The directors came with what they had, which is talent, and did great, great episodes.  

I know once I was going through Facebook, I'm not going to mention her name because she was in Leslie's. My class at AFI said something about, well, they're always talking about Ava, Ava, Ava. And I got very upset, and I wrote a rebuttal on, Facebook. It's like, okay, yeah, because Ava DuVernay changed the face of television. And no one has, ever since her, done a show with all women directors of every color and every nationality. She deserves all the credit she gets.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Neema Barnett: Because trust me, you know, there's a lot of people that didn't like what she did as, you can imagine. Sure. You know, and what she did, but she held on, she held strong. And I was so happy that the show came out so beautifully because that gave her something to really, you know, stick her chest out with. And, you know, if, you know, Ava, you know, she worked it. She worked it, you know, and she loves women.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Neema Barnett: And she fought for us. And she knew, you know, from her own experiences as a young director and all the doors that were closed and all the things that people said to her. Trouble with women is that, we don't get as much experience as the men, so we can't perfect our craft as much as the men can. And we need that experience. And like you said, sharon, which is very important for them to open up the doors to other women. That's the key. And I think that's what Ava wanted most. The future will tell. You know, since I left Queen Sugar, I think I mentored twelve women, got them all in the guild. They all, you know, shadowed me, and I work with them. I still do it. And I'm sure, a lot of other people do it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank you. That's hugely important.

Neema Barnett: Yeah. You are to be commended for that. Yeah, well, thank you. But, you know, no, it's very important. I mean, I don't think I'm being commended. I do it because I know it's important. And someone did it for me. And, you know, guys, I'm a street girl from Harlem, and I'm loyal. You know, when someone does something for me, I don't forget it. And I know it's important. And you have to reach out. That's the main thing. We have to let each other in. And that's why I'm here today.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, we so appreciate it, because you.

Neema Barnett: Guys called me, and, I said, I have to do it. I don't like to do too many, you know, shows. You don't see me too much doing these things. I get a lot. Some offers. But this I thought was important. You accepted ours.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank you so much.

Neema Barnett: Well, I'm an eighties girl.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, you are now. I just wanted to. Did you work with Susan

01:15:00

Susan Lambert Hatem: Fales Hill on a different world?

Neema Barnett: I did work with Susan, and I worked with her mother, Josephine Premise, on the Robert Guillaume show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, all right.

Neema Barnett: So, I loved her mother. Mother gave me a beautiful pair of earrings, which I still have in my jewelry box. I'm afraid to wear because they're so gorgeous. She got it from Paris. You know. Her mother was friends with Josephine Baker. Oh, wow.

Sharon Johnson: Really?

Neema Barnett: Susan Fale's mother was a star. You know, I didn't go to Harvard. I didn't go to Yale. I went to city college, and then I went to NYU graduate school. School. So, you know, like I said, film is the elitist business. And there's a lot of clicks in a lot of different tribes out there. So my battle was a little more difficult because I didn't have those ivy league connections. M but I got there, you know? I got there.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Where can people find you?

Neema Barnett: My husband and I have our Black history mini docs, and I love them.

Susan Lambert Hatem: They're so. Thank you. They're so great. They're so, like, make you want to go look up everything.

Neema Barnett: Yes. Yes. We're going on our 10th year, and, we were, featured at the, Abraham Lincoln museum last Black History Month. A scholar from Harvard did a whole month, and every day showed Black history mini docs. And you can go to our Blackhistoryminidocs.com site and see all the minidocs we did. It's a family affair, and we do it for free because we both felt, what could we do? What could we do? One thing we do know, if you don't know where you come from, you never know where you're going.

Sharon Johnson: Exactly.

Neema Barnett: And I think that there's so many, like I said, from my experience in Hollywood, particularly working with actors of color, noticing how damaged and broken they were and how badly they were treated, I thought it was very important. My husband and I both thought it was important for them to know what royalty they come from. So it's important. We're very proud of our Black history mini doc. So they can reach me on Black historyminidocs.com or on Instagram, Neema films or on Facebook, I'm there. Social media. I'm there. Ava taught me that. I was not on social media before Ava, but, you know, Ava does not play with that social media. Gotta do it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, she started as a publicist, right?

Neema Barnett: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh.

Susan Lambert Hatem: She knows the power.

Neema Barnett: Oh, yeah. She actually grabbed my phone and put me on those social media. She was like, Neema, you gotta do it. So. And I want to take a minute to thank you women for what you do. I think it's fabulous.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank you.

Neema Barnett: And I'm going to be a fan because I'm a podcast person. And, I'm honored that you guys called me because the eighties was an important time for me, important time for everybody in television. You know, a lot of things changing. So continue on, sisters Queens. Continue on.

Sharon Johnson: Thank you. And we look forward to hearing your thoughts when you listen to some of the episodes. We always like to hear what our listeners think about the episodes. And so now you'll be one of them. So that'd be great. Love to hear from you.

Neema Barnett: Thank you, Sharon. Take care, guys. Have a great day.

Sharon Johnson: Thank you.

Neema Barnett: Thank you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: For our audiography. Today you can find out out more about Neemabarnette@instagram.com Neemafilms and on twitter@twitter.com. neamric neemmrick.

Sharon Johnson: And you can watch the really cool Black history mini docs you mentioned at Black historyminidocs.com dot.

Susan Lambert Hatem: The advertising you hear on this show covers very, very, very little of the cost of producing this show. The best way to support this show and not hear ads is on patreon.com eightiestvladies. We really appreciate your support.

Sharon Johnson: Our next episode will continue our, look at a different world with the adorable and insightful nineties tv babies.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And we have brought them a show that ran into the nineties. So if they were born in the early nineties, they were like six months old. If you want to prepare yourself, here is the assignment we gave to the nineties tv babies. They were asked to watch the following episodes of a different world season one, episode one the pilot season two, episode one Doctor War is hell season two, episode two, no means no and season six, episode nine and ten faith, hope and charity, parts one and two.

Sharon Johnson: And of course, they were more than welcome to watch as many episodes as they wanted, and we're looking forward to hearing their thoughts about the show. We hope eighties tv ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. All of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Like Neema Barnett.

Sharon Johnson: We wish.

01:20:00

[Music][Singing] Amy Englehardt: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

01:20:14

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