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Ep. 224

Star Trek Ladies: Nana Visitor | Deep Space Nine, Part 2

In this special series we're calling Star Trek ladies. We're looking at the women of Star Trek across all decades.

Melissa Roth: Weirding way media network.

[Music] [Singing] Amy Englehardt: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Melissa Roth: Welcome to eighties tv ladies, where we look back at female driven television shows from the 1980s. In this special series we're calling Star Trek ladies. We're looking at the women of Star Trek across all decades and across the universe. Here are your hosts, Sharon Johnson and Susan Lambert Hatem.

Sharon Johnson: hello, I'm Sharon.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I'm Susan.

Sharon Johnson: And we are in the middle of our two-part interview with Nana Visitor, who starred as Kira Nerys for seven seasons of Deep Space Nine and revisited.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Her DS nine role in the Star Trek animated series lower decks, as well as in several Star Trek video games.

Sharon Johnson: This is part two of a wonderful two-part conversation we had with her. So if you want to start from the beginning, please go back to our last episode with Nana. It's season two, episode 23.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Or you can have your dessert before dinner and start right here.

Sharon Johnson: Either way, please join us. We're mid conversation with our special Star Trek and eighties lady, Nana visitor.

How have you seen television change from the eighties to now?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, we're back. Before we leave the eighties, you talked a little bit about it. How have you seen television change from the eighties for now, for you, for women, production wise?

Nana Visitor: Well, in many ways, I think that once it stopped being so, so corporate, I mean, when it was three stations and syndication, it was suits in charge. Absolutely. And with the breaking down of having so much availability, now, really, people are able to cater to what people want to see, not what we're told we're going to see. We can find it out there. So people have more freedom to do what they do and to make it about women or this group or that group, or say just what they want to say. I see that changing a lot. I see more awareness in the culture from the eighties. We're still not there, but there are sets that, certainly discovery is one of these sets that I've heard about. They have HR. What? Yeah, the actors can go to HR. What? That blows me away. Unheard of.

There are women executive producing, producing on sets behind the sets

Susan Lambert Hatem: So tell me what you've heard about the set of discovery and the production of discovery for listeners that may not be, and where.

Nana Visitor: Well, it's not the hierarchy as I certainly knew it, where there's a man in charge, and he decides how much is going to trickle down in terms of opportunities for women or for people, whatever it is. You can have as many writers as you want. You can have as many actors as you want. Everybody going all the way up can really have that in their mind. To push for this non biased way of looking at life. But unless the guy at the top decides he's going to decide when to stop it, how much he's in control of that lever. And what I'm seeing is that when it's a man, even today, first of all, there's a huge awareness to the point where I've talked to an executive producer who says, no, if the guy bringing coffee in has a good idea or goes, you know what? That idea that you're talking about that could be offensive to, you know, they'll stop and listen. There is a stop and pay attention thing going on that in the eighties would have been laughable. Laughable.

Sharon Johnson: Even five years ago it would have been laughable. Would not have happened. It's amazing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Nana Visitor: it is amazing. And I'm sure it's still like that in some way. Depends on the show you're working on. Depends on the show. Ah, but just looking at discovery, there are women executive producing, producing on sets behind the sets. They're not worried about giving power. You know, there was always this thing of don't give power to the actors. They'll get too powerful and they'll have a say, and that's bad. And that's changing. They're listening, and, you know, equity diversity training is having its effect, and just women being in the room changes the dynamic of how a meeting goes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, that's incredible.

Sharon Johnson: I had not heard anything about that. That's really great to know.

Nana Visitor: Yes.

You did a Knight Rider. Did you ride in the car in Knight Rider?

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, so back to the nineties. [makes noise like traveling through time]

Nana Visitor: Whoa.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So we're back in the nineties. You're doing a bunch of nineties tv shows. You did a knight Rider. Did you get to ride in the car in the Knight Rider?

Nana Visitor: Did not, but I was filmed near it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay.

Nana Visitor: And he was lovely. I have to say. He was lovely. Very kind, down to earth person.

Brian Keith was grumpy on Hardcastle and McKormick. “He was not happy on our show. (Deep Space Nine)”

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, who else did you love working with?

Nana Visitor: I'll tell you who I didn't enjoy working with.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's good, too.

Nana Visitor: Andy Griffith.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Really? I've heard that.

Nana Visitor: Interesting.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I heard that. We heard that from somebody. I heard that from somebody that he was kind of not nice. I heard that he was creeping on the ladies. Did he creep on you?

Nana Visitor: He didn't creep on me. there was a weird dynamic between us, and he would, when I was doing the scene of turning into, you know, I was.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Because in one character, you played two people.

Nana Visitor: Two people.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So, like, you were on it three times playing four people. I mean, that's pretty impressive. Matlock.

Nana Visitor: True. and I don't know what his issue was with me. And I believe he was. Was he directing it? Whether he was listed as directing it or not, he was directing it, but it was almost as if he was trying to trip me up in my acting, as if he was trying to help me fail. Which is a very weird dynamic, for him to have had, with me. But it was not a great experience at all with him, which is crazy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Because they brought you back. So clearly he was having a good time.

Nana Visitor: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Because he could have said no, but he was like, oh, no, bring her back because I can mess with her some more.

Nana Visitor: It was weird. It was very weird.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Who knows? Can't be speaking out of turn. It wasn't hearsay -- it doesn't matter.

Nana Visitor: Because he was so great. He was so great.

Susan Lambert Hatem: He's very good on the show. Yes.

Nana Visitor: Yep.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Very good on all his shows.

Nana Visitor: In everything.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Nana Visitor: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But you want them to be good too, like recent human beings, at the.

Sharon Johnson: Very least professional and act professionally. That seems to be the floor for me. But all right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Who else was no fun? Who else was no fun?

Nana Visitor: You know what? But I don't blame him. Now we're in the nineties. Now we're creeping into ds nine. It was such a hard show to guest on our, show. It was.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, yeah, I would imagine.

Nana Visitor: They have to deal with makeup, they have to deal with the hours. They have to deal with green screen. They have to deal with a tone and a way of speaking that we all had some time with. But they just have to, you know, and lots of dialogue. It's not like little speeches. Brian Keith was very grumpy. He was not happy on our show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Now he's from Hardcastle McCormick, which Mark McCormick played by, Daniel Hugh Kelly, who you worked with in Ryan's Hope. Did you like Daniel Hugh Kelly?

Nana Visitor: He was great.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Not that I'm a big, Hardcastle & McCormick fan, but I am.

Nana Visitor: Yeah, he was. He didn't pay too much attention to me. You know, he was a real guys’ guy and I was young, so he was like... But he was always kind and sweet.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And Brian Keith must have been pretty old.

Nana Visitor: He was. He was old and he was very, was grumpy. He was great. He did a good job. But he hated every minute of it. And it was him and me. So that was tough.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, that's tough.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. I was going to say, if I recall correctly, the two of you were in a scene together or scenes together with just the two of you for about half the episode because that was the main plot of the story. You were trying to get his character to leave, I believe, where he was living, and he didn't want to go.

Nana Visitor: Right, right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So he was being grumpy as a character.

Nana Visitor: Yeah, yeah. And maybe he was that kind of actor, you know, where you get in a mode and you stay there. But I don't think so. I think he was really unhappy. He was happy.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I don't think his health was that great. Even from Hardcastle & McCormick on, there were times watching Hardcastle & McCormick, where you're like, he does not feel good today.

Brian Keith was in his seventies when he did “Deep Space Nine”.

He does not want to climb in that car. And I think he just finally said, I'm not climbing in that car anymore, so you can just figure it out. Go catch him, McCormick. I'll wait here on the sidewalk like a reasonable person. I mean, he had to be in his seventies or eighties when he did Deep Space Nine.

Nana Visitor: I would think so.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay. we're going to give him. We're going to give him a little bit because Brian Kate give it to him.

Nana Visitor: Him because our hours were just. He wouldn't have been used to that, and he would have been treated like a star.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm not sure he was a Deep Space Nine guy.

Nana Visitor: No.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Nana Visitor: I think a lot of agents just said, hey, this is the new Star Trek, so it'll be an annuity if you get on it, so just go and do it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And if you can get Brian Keith, you take Brian Keith.

Nana Visitor: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

You get a call about this new Star Trek show. What happens next?

All right. We're in the nineties. You get a call about this new Star Trek show. What happens next?

Nana Visitor: You know, I was at the height. I was expecting to get a series that, I was on that trajectory. I was auditioning, like, doing pilots four different places a day. It was a lot. And I auditioned for La Law. Juni Lowry was, the casting director on it. And I auditioned, and I was just out the door, and she chased me down. That's either really good or really bad. This time it was really bad. So you're not getting this, but there's a show that you could be really right for. And she sent me the script, and it was this Star Trek. And I called my manager, and I said, this is a mistake. Major Kira is obviously a man. She's angry with the captain and telling him he shouldn't be here and being aggressive. And this is the audition scene, so this doesn't seem to be right. And they know they're looking for a woman. I was like, are you kidding me? And I wanted it so badly. I wanted this job so badly. And then I got it and my manager said, career killer. You do science fiction now. Science fiction means you're doing a, blockbuster movie. Then it meant you were doing a kiddie show and it was probably syndicated and you weren't going to make money and you were going to be, you know, put in the Sci-Fi box. In that box. But the part was so I remember calling my father and saying, what should I do? They're telling me not to do this. And he said, what do you want? I said, I love the role. And he said, do it. You can't think these things out. You can't know, just go with what your heart's saying. I'm so grateful that he did because it was, you know, 49 years of the best years of my life. I know it was just seven.

Susan Lambert Hatem: They were dog years.

Nana Visitor: They were dog years.

Sharon Johnson: I started a, complete rewatch of the series during the first year of the pandemic, and honestly, I'd forgotten that you were doing 26 episodes a year.

Nana Visitor: Right?

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. And I saw that I was a little gobsmacked, but I still forged ahead and got through the whole thing, or most of it. There's some episodes that are not my favorite, so I allowed myself to skip them if I felt like, yeah, good for you, but nevertheless, that's a lot of work. That's a whole lot of work. And in the first few seasons, anyway, it seemed that everyone was in every episode, and then as it went on, they seemed to find a way to not have you be in every episode or at least maybe just do one scene and come back. And I would imagine that was for your mental health and stamina to help you get through the rest of the season or less of the series, anyway.

Nana Visitor: I don't think so, really.

Sharon Johnson: Here I thought the producers were being magnanimous and trying to get the best out of their cast and all that kind of fun stuff.

Nana Visitor: No, no. These were the years of their ten more behind you. I think it was difficult for the writers. It was a lot for them to have to incorporate all these characters easier to, you know, have a couple of shows where they just get to concentrate. And there were writers who, you know, wrote for the Ferengis or wrote for the Klingons and so that they could focus on those shows and for the story. I think it just worked out better.

Sharon Johnson: It worked out fabulously as far as I was concerned.

Every new Star Trek show ruined Star Trek according to the people who watched it.

When you mentioned you were talking to your father about taking the role, and I have to agree with him. I always thought it was a great role too, but you're stepping into a Star Trek series, and even at that time, the fandom was pretty strong for that show. And I wondered if you had any trepidation about the kind of fans and the kinds of people that are Star Trek fans. And this whole Star Trek fandom thing.

Nana Visitor: I remember I was doing a tryout for a show, a Broadway show in Boston, and I was staying at a hotel where there was a Star Trek convention, and it was like these exotic birds, you know, a flock of exotic birds came and landed in the hotel. It was like I'd never seen anything like it, and it was fascinating, and I didn't understand why people dressed up. I didn't get it. I think I was, well, start here. Every new Star Trek show ruined Star Trek according to the people who watched. Ruined it for sure. Even, you know, it was so funny. I said, so sinequa. You know, I helped ruin Star Trek with deep space Nine. she said, oh, yeah, I'm ruining Star Trek. Everyone started. And if you ask the next generation people, they were told the same thing. So it's always with like, okay, I'm going to have to make space in here for us. It's not easy. And, yeah, I get it. Once you watch something in your, it's like getting your favorite drink at Starbucks. If they suddenly change it, it's like, damn it, that's not my drink. That's not the taste that I am used to getting. So it's a little annoying at first. It takes time.

Sharon Johnson: Well, I have to say, this particular Star Trek fan was always glad to see a new iteration. And yes, there were series like Deep Space Nine I like better than others, but I really appreciated the expansion of the, and still do the expansion of the world. right, but you're not writing in.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Going, oh, this is great, you did a good job. Right?

Nana Visitor: Those are the people that wrote.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You're either writing in because you love it so much, you're naming your children and getting tattoos, or you are writing because they have ruined Star Trek.

Sharon Johnson: I have to admit, I was somewhere in the middle of all of that, but still, I think for the most part, most people, at least most of the people I know, really enjoyed that part of it.

Nana Visitor: They're enjoying it now. They're enjoying deep space now. because it can be watched. it can be binge watched, which is how it needed to be.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Binge watch. It's such a streaming show.

Nana Visitor: It was serialized. People couldn't find it. What just happened? And why is Kira being grumpy now because you didn't know what happened to me last week, because we carried these emotions through and we were able to have big character arcs because of that. We changed and shifted, not just because we got older, but because our characters had experiences that lived inside our bodies in the next show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And that's such an interesting thing for a franchise, for a show like, you know, the original Star Trek does not have an evolution of character. It wasn't on, that long, but three seasons. There's not, other than Spock kind of understanding himself a little bit better, there's not a huge evolution of character over that show. And that's somewhat very television familiar, right. That's the sort of old television of, I want to come and sit in this warm bath of these characters that I know and I love and I want to spend time with, and I don't want them to change. Right. Oh, my God, you're kissing George Clooney. You're going to take him to Africa with you when you leave. And leave poor Julia Duffy there to take care of her baby by herself.

Nana Visitor: Right?

Susan Lambert Hatem: And yet. Nope. Turns out, nope. George Clooney, stay.

Nana Visitor: No, I'm not.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Everything resets.

Nana Visitor: I'm going to go away.

Sharon Johnson: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Resets in so much television, and I think now we're in this very different world that deep space Nine was sort of at the edge of. They were at the edge of the galaxy of. You can transform characters over time as people do, and there was so much evolution in those characters over the course of the seasons, and all of Star Trek started doing it.

Nana Visitor: And there are consequences. There are consequences for things you do. It's not a reset, as you said. So that's such an interesting, it was like Disneyland to be with that company of actors. My God, my God. Rene Aubergenois, Avery Brooks, who was, in my opinion, a fabulous number one.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is great to hear because he was on screen. So, yeah, you're like, oh, yeah, I'll follow this guy into deep space, sit on a station. Yeah.

Do people recognize you because you had makeup on, on Star Trek?

So I'm curious, when the Star Trek phenome happened, for you, like, at what point did you realize, oh, I may spend the rest of my life going to conventions or showing up, and people recognize you, but I don't know if people recognize you because you had makeup on. Do people recognize you?

Nana Visitor: If I go to get my computer fixed and he's like, yeah, what can I do for you? And I say, well, my computer. And he's like, major Kira, I recognize your voice. Yeah. So you know, especially the people who are very into stem or steam, they know, and it doesn't matter what I look like. They know. But there aren't the weirdos that, I mean, yeah, a percentage of them are the weirdos we think of, but if you take any apartment building in New York, it's the same percentage. It's just people. That's just what's in the mix. And it's kind of wonderful because even the weirdos are like, yep, this is your home, too. What's going on? Come on in. This is where we all live, the tenets of a hopeful future, where we, Suniqua said this, where we meet each other, where we are, neurodiversity, whatever it is. We meet you right there. Hi.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I m like that. I mean, and I think that has always been in the Star Trek box of Theory of what Star Trek is about.

Nana Visitor: And by the way, let me just add that neurodiversity is often behind what was mistaken as weird, where someone would just push in front and just start talking to you. But if they're on the spectrum, it's just, that's just how their brain works, and they are actually engaging and brilliant and fascinating and worthwhile listening to. So as we get more knowledge of people, there aren't any weirdos.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: I think one of the things I like most about deep Space Nine is the characters. obviously the stories, too, but the characters are also well defined, well played by an amazing cast of actors. Their stories and backgrounds are interesting, and there's no attempt to make anybody a carbon copy of somebody else or a carbon cutout of what you think somebody is or should be. It's fascinating in that way. I've always really appreciated that.

Louise Fletcher as Kai Winn was one of my favorite characters on the show

When we were talking before we started, I mentioned that Louise Fletcher as Kai Winn was one of my favorite characters on the show. As much as I hated her most of the time, she also managed to convey a sense of an insecurity, perhaps underneath of what she was doing, that kind of thing.

Nana Visitor: Yeah, there was a vulnerability to her.

Sharon Johnson: Yes.

Nana Visitor: Which is weird with, someone who's an arch villain. It was wonderful. And she would be so funny and sweet off camera, and we'd be laughing about something. She had the best laugh. And then we'd go to the scene and I would feel my nervous system start to respond to a totally different person. And it was like, I'm scared of you. It was amazing. She was amazing. And you're right. And also, I think that by that time, we started to understand that whatever we did was going to have meaning for other people. So Terry Farrell, knowing that she is going to do this story of trills where a, trill that she was in love with and now it's in a woman's body, she was really mindful of the importance of that scene. I was mindful of how trauma affected my character and how I represented that. and I couldn't skimp, I couldn't go to this safe place and just say the lines and maybe that'll be effective. I wanted to do right by people who went through horrors of war and really be there. Avery, knew what it meant to be a single black father and made a point always of having that relationship with Siroc, with his son, be as front and center as possible. We started to get that there was messaging going out and that we somehow, what? We just said yes to a job, but now there was a responsibility that came with it. And I think just about everybody I've, spoken to on the shows has taken that responsibility very seriously.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. As you mentioned with Major Kira, I loved that they let her be as angry and forthright and strong, especially in the beginning, because, again, she's just come out of this trauma. She really doesn't want the, Starfleet to be there. She just wants all these people to go away so they can do what they need to do to get their planet back in some semblance of order. And they let her be angry, and they let her be forceful, and over time, the edges get smoothed out a little bit. But that doesn't mean that that still isn't under there somewhere. And, you don't get to see that a lot. I can't think of another female character that you really get to see that, see, really play that out over time. And that was one of the beauties of the long term story that they were telling is that because it was serialized, you got to see the progress, you got to see the progression. You got to see movement forward and sometimes movement back as things happened. And she reacted to them.

Nana Visitor: That's right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And she got to be a leader. She's one of the first leaders in the Star Trek women world. Like, true. Like, I'm in charge, and I was in charge before you got here, and I will be in charge after you're gone. Because it comes down to me, like, I do think she carries that from episode one, which at the time, I mean, was it in? Am I missing something out of the Star Trek world? Coming into this, it felt like the first time there was a. I know, there's other leaders in maybe the movies, like, I don't know.

Nana Visitor: There were. You know what? Here's the difference. There were guest stars who were powerful, who were antagonistic, but, you know, like, I'm not gonna take George Clooney away. They're not welcomed into your living room every. Every week. so there were very powerful women, in next generation. but guest stars and aliens. and I was lucky to be an alien because then I was free of having to be a human woman.

Susan Lambert Hatem: A human female.

Nana Visitor: Yeah. It was like. That was my excuse. Hey, I'm Bajoran. That's just the way I am. And it was very interesting at the time to get the response that I did from women as well, not just from men, of, That's not how a woman is strong, because even women were used to this silo of where it was acceptable to be. And you're not getting into that silo appropriately. And it was like, well, no, because. And it led to so much self doubt in me. It led to so much what's wrong with me that. That is how I am when I'm angry. That is how I respond. That's who I am. And yet that's not a woman. That's not. What does that mean? And I'm getting it from men and women. And it took me so long to understand that that was the cultural cap, that was the herding to something that we can accept of what a woman is. And you better get in that box. And it's only been recently where I realize, no, there's a full spectrum where I exist, where every woman exists. And the more women we have being represented, the more people on that spectrum all over the place can help people be seen. We can represent those people in storytelling.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, I think that's amazing. And I'm sorry that when you're creating something like that and it's a particular actor thing, right. You are presenting writers and directors, but you're the vessel that is in front and getting judged.

Nana Visitor: That's what we do.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But that's what you do, right?

Nana Visitor: That's the job. But it was weird to be culturally important to people and have them go, you're doing it wrong. And not only that, it wasn't like I went far away from who I was. I went to who I was. So it's like, now you're wrong.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so that was internalized.

Nana Visitor: Weirdly, it affected me personally, but I doggedly wouldn't stop doing it with Major Kira. It was like, nope, I've got to do it this way, I've got to. But for me, I felt it.

Sharon Johnson: It's interesting because obviously, it was a much smaller world for each of us because social media didn't exist and things were starting to expand out from there. And, I mean, obviously, I wasn't playing major care, but I kind of felt the same way. Like, yeah, she can say these things and do these things that I would never be allowed to do, and that's wonderful that she's able to do that. I guess it never occurred to me that anybody would feel differently, because why not? Why can't a woman be that way? And sadly, I think that silo that you mentioned still exists, for the most part, for women, there is, either consciously or unconsciously a thought amongst most people that, yeah, there are boundaries that women need to stay within. And when they overstep, there's a price to be paid, because it's perceived they want power or they want this or they want that, and they're just not doing it right to try to gain those things.

And for men, too, men who don't wish to partake in what the patriarchy says…

Nana Visitor: And for men, too, men who don't wish to partake in what the patriarchy says is the acceptable way of male behavior, they get told, too. It's like, no, that's not how we do it. and that's the gift of storytelling, because you didn't know what was going on other than that's possible, and that's happening in the future. Women are like that, so it makes our room just a little bigger every time.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back with more. Nana visitor.

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And we're back.

Sharon Johnson: Let's jump right in.

Nana Visitor: At the end of the day, we just want to be who we are, right? We just want to be who we are. And if we can take the clothes, you know, the tightfitting clothes off that we're told we're supposed to be and just relax into who we are. It's going to be like flowers. There's so much diversity, and it's gorgeous.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. It's, an ecosystem that, ah, needs diversity m in order to thrive. And I think that's the gift that people do respond to in Star Trek and what they forget when they get stuck on. What? Star Trek. It's a metaphor. Like, the people are like, no, Star Trek isn't. This is in some ways, the same instinct of, no, women can only do this.

Nana Visitor: You know, it has to be what I'm familiar with. And that's one of the big human things we've got to deal with. We would love to control our exterior world, and we just can't. We have to keep going.

Susan Lambert Hatem: The push-pull of I want to explore, but I don't want to be met with something I don't understand.

Nana Visitor: Right, right, exactly, exactly. Oh, God.

You talked about being a mother and an actress while doing this show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, so I had a question about kind of being a mother and an actress and being a mother while you were doing this show, because you talked about making the choice to stay in New Mexico, and that had. You had to be going, my career is a choice.

Nana Visitor: Yep. And it did. And it did. It stopped me cold. I got off the hamster wheel, and.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So those choices that we make for the people in our lives and that I want this and I want that. And how do I navigate all these roles? I'm curious how you felt you navigated that through Star Trek and into wildfire.

Nana Visitor: And even now, you know, being able to be a mother, and this is for scientists. This is for every mother. There has to be support and acceptance and leeway and, you know, an ability to shift so that she can do what she needs to do. And that didn't exist at all back then. There was a hunter. There was an actor named Hunter. I can't remember her last name, but I know she went into litigation because they let her go when she got pregnant. And that was very much what was happening when I got pregnant, and I was terrified that I'm, going to be fired, and rightfully so. I'm supposed to be this, you know, action figure, and now I'm going to have a baby. I've done it to myself, and it was such a gift that they wrote it in and that they made it okay. But where I was living in the hierarchy and the patriarchy, in accepting what all the feelings about mothers back then were accepting the fact that many mothers said, how can you do what you do? I just want to be with my children. It's amazing that you're not. It doesn't bother you that, so even those things. It's a drip. It's just a little drip. But pretty soon that drip is breaking you down pretty well. So I put myself in the position of thinking before anyone else could say it. I can't let this bother anyone. I can't sit down. I was in labor on set, and I went behind the set to get through the worst of it. But I remember hunkering down and they say, you want a chair? It was like, no, no, I'm fine, thanks. And of course, I didn't tell anyone. Of course I didn't.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, my.

Nana Visitor: Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, my God. And so you finished the day before you went.

Nana Visitor: Finished the day. I went to the doctor and he said, no, you're, I can't remember. It was two weeks or three weeks early. I figured this out, and you're not due now. So he stopped my, he stopped it. And then on, the day I was supposed to have the baby, he started it. So when they give you pitocin to start your contractions, it's unbelievably painful. So it was tough. But that's how I had my second son. And he was covered in lanugo, which is hair, which means he was over baked, which means when I went into labor, I should have had him. So. But it was like, what? Yes. Okay. That's what. Okay. Yeah. Stop it. Anything that's natural for me, I will trust that you are right. I put my trust, I tried to be a good girl. I tried to have my baby and have it father no one. And I said to myself, if anyone has to suffer because I'm working and I have an infant, it's going to be me. And so it was. And of course, that's not sustainable. M at all. Not at all. You know, I learned my lesson early on. There was a show where they thought they were going to use me in the first scene. And my son, my first son, he was three months old when I started the show. And, he was sick. They weren't going to use me till the end of the day, which was at least 8 hours. I said, can I go home and see my son, make sure he's okay? I have childcare for him. I'll come right back. And it was a woman ad and she said, you should have thought of that before you took this job. So that was the world I was in, and I accepted it, and I went, yes, yes. This is my issue. This is mine to deal with. I don't expect any help. So things have changed big time, thank goodness, which I'm so happy about.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's so. It's. Yeah, yeah. The nineties maybe weren't much better than these.

Sharon Johnson: A little bit incrementally.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Incrementally, but come on. And then we still had.

Nana Visitor: There was a big. I think what I was dealing with on deep space was, the response of my character was women were more and more in the workplace. Women were starting to be allowed to be who they were and figure out how to do this job. Some people may have become characters in the workplace that they actually weren't, but they thought they needed to be. we were figuring it out.

There was a big backlash in the nineties towards women in the workplace.

So I think there was a big backlash in the nineties towards women in the workplace. So I think that's where we were in the culture at that moment.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, there's a lot of stepping forward, then getting pushed back and then stepping forward a, little bit this way. Well, pay no attention to what we're doing over here.

Nana Visitor: Right? Just like life.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Nana Visitor: Just like the rest of life.

You have an asteroid named after you!

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, so before we leave Star Trek, I wanted to just sort of talk about, like, you have an asteroid named after you. You get invited, I'm sure, to all these conventions and things, like, what's been, like, one of the coolest things that has happened because you're part of now this incredible world of Star Trek.

Nana Visitor: A couple of things. One is I spoke with Samantha Cristoforetti, who became the commander of the space station. I went to the European Space Agency and talked to her while she was in space. And when I heard someone say, open a channel to the space station, my mind was ricocheting. I said those words so many times, and yet here I was, and that was a woman, a young woman who had watched me say it, and now she was really on a space station. It was. I don't weep over emotional moments like that very often, but I remember just having to leave. It was overwhelming. The other thing is, I do cameos, and very often I'll have a man say, we named our daughter Kira. And would you talk to her about why the character was important, what Kira was about? And I don't hold back, and I talk about. And sometimes it's for the future when she can actually understand it. But I talk about being full spectrum, being allowed our feelings, being allowed to make mistakes, what that means for a woman being allowed to have agency and goals. And what knocks me out is that I'll get a note back, and the father says, thank you. That's just what I wanted her to hear. That knocked me out.

Sharon Johnson: Wow.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm using my Designing Women's shirt to wipe my eyes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You made me cry.

Nana Visitor: The father wants his daughter to hear that that's where we are.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And to have, you know, Kira be a name. You know, we named our son Dashiell not to be an alcoholic writer, but because he was a good writer -- because we thought it was cool because he invented the detective. Okay, that's pretty amazing. And that's the power of television and the power of storytelling and the power of acting and the power of creating these characters that live, in some ways, separated apart from you, but you created them. And such an amazing gift to the universe and also the Star Trek universe.

Nana Visitor: And there's power in these conversations and in sharing this and the back and forth of what you got. What I got, what we can talk about today, and what young people can hear of, where we were, where we are now. Where do you want to go? Let's talk about that, too.

You're working on a book about the women of Star Trek

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right. Well, so, I hear you're working on a book.

Nana Visitor: I am.

Susan Lambert Hatem: can you talk about the book?

Nana Visitor: Well, it's called “Open A Channel”, and it's about the women of Star Trek and their effect on the culture and what the culture was doing to them while they were working. And that's why I've gotten to speak to so many incredible people involved in the franchise over this time span. And I've, learned so much, trust me. The story of my pregnancy, I never even thought about it. I never told anyone about it until I started writing this book. And I've had so many moments of going, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. And as I do, it's not like I'm bitter about that time. I just love to see how far we have come, and let's talk about where else there is to go.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. That's amazing. I'm very excited about the book. it's right up our alley, of course, because it's about the women of Star Trek. I love that. And open a channel, I assume, that has this story you just told us in it.

Nana Visitor: Yeah. That was a big moment for me. Big moment.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So incredible. And you also. You do a podcast with your son.

Nana Visitor: I do. I do Django, and I do an intergenerational conversation, and it's fascinating for both of us. And it's also always fascinating to do any kind of work thing with a, relative, especially a child. And I feel in some ways, like this ancient carpenter thing, you know, like, I'm going, well, this is how this happens, of course, in my carpenter fantasy, the sun is going, oh, yes, I see. Now I'll do it the way you do it. And it's not. He's going, well, this is how it happens now. And I learn a little something, and we both do.

Susan Lambert Hatem: They're lovely conversations. I've listened to a couple, they're quite lovely. It's very, like, warm and inviting, and the conversations are so interesting. it's a really fascinating podcast, so.

Nana Visitor: It means so much to me. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And your mamanana Instagram, so also meaningful and wonderful. So you kind of shifted your Instagram from, like, pictures of their life.

Nana Visitor: Yeah. You see that happen. That was like, it was very, very short pictures and stuff, and I didn't really. I'm not big on any, you know, keeping up with any of that. But the minute the pandemic hit, I felt this, like it was jumping out at me to help young people, because I've dealt with anxiety and depression and not knowing what the next step is, so much as so many people do. and I took a deep dive into discovering what worked and what didn't work for me and how to recover. I had immense help, recovering from post traumatic stress. So it was just me desperately reaching out and going, look, I know this is tough. This is what helped me with anxiety. This is what helps me right now to sleep. This is what I just learned about our nervous systems. We can start managing our bodies instead of being victims of them. If we just understand a few chemicals that happen a few ways, that our bodies and our brains are set to just keep us alive, they're not set to keep us happy. We have to do that. It's like adding something in your iPhone. It become basic, you know? And unfortunately, the biggest thing that it comes basic with our bodies is fear, so that we stay alive. Now we have to add all the rest of this that will keep us alive and happy or peaceful or content or at least feeling all of it. And I just felt this need to share that so much. And I did it every day because, if one person needed it, I wanted to be there for them. And, oh, there was a man who was dying and was scared of it, and we talked together through it, and then he didn't write anymore. And there have been friendships and relationships and the people that I see, people I get to meet later on who have had a presence on that site, and it's really meaningful to me. I don't do it every day. I do it once a week now. But, yeah, that's a big deal. That's something I'll keep doing and never monetize it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's pretty beautiful. Where can people find you?

Nana Visitor: There.

Susan Lambert Hatem: There?

Nana Visitor: Yeah. Visitornana on Instagram, not so much on, but I am. But I don't know. Twitter's weird. I don't know what's going on there, but I show up once in a while. But Instagram, that's where I really live right now. And on things like this, I thank you both so much for this. This was a wonderful conversation, is when I met you, I thought it would.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Be, oh, thank you. This has been a really, dreamy and wonderful and as, again, we found each other at a party. Yeah, that's a good way to find people, I think. Rare for me, to be honest. I'm usually like, wallflower.

Nana Visitor: And great luck with all of it. It was a huge pleasure talking to you.

Sharon Johnson: Thank you so much. Can't thank you enough for this. It's been amazing.

Nana Visitor: Thank you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Bye.

Nana Visitor: thank you. Bye bye.

AUDIOOGRAPHY: 80s TV Ladies discuss Star Trek with Nana Visitor

Sharon Johnson: In today's audiography, you can find all things Star Trek at Star Trek for Nana Visitor, you can find her on instagram. Visitorna there's also a YouTube channel where some wonderful fan has created a library of her television appearances, and we'll have a link to that on our website.

Susan Lambert Hatem: If you want to dive into Star Trek and don't know where to begin, if you are one of those few listeners that have watched no Star Trek in your life, check out eighties tv ladies for links to watching the franchise in chronological order and release order.

Sharon Johnson: Thank you so much for listening to eighties tv ladies. Be sure to tell your friends and family about us.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And please, if you like this show and want more eighties tv ladies, you can support us@patreon.com. eightiestvladies and get some extra cool perks, too.

Nana Visitor: Tell us, who's your favorite Star Trek movie lady? What Star Trek ladies should we be talking about? Send us a message@eightiestvladies.com.

Sharon Johnson: We hope eighties tv ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. All of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.

[Music] [Singing] Amy Englehardt: 80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh-[wolf whistle]. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

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