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Exploring the Fabulous Women of Designing Women

Melissa Roth: Welcome to 80s TV Ladies. Part of the Weirding Way Media Network.

Amy Englehardt: 80s TV Ladies, so sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh#*ty. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Melissa Roth: Welcome to 80s TV Ladies, where we explore the fabulous, female driven television shows of the 1980s with your hosts, Susan Lambert Hatem and Sharon Johnson.

Sharon Johnson: Hello, I'm Sharon.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I'm Susan.

Sharon Johnson: Today we're going to talk about one of our favorite subjects, the women of Designing Women

Susan Lambert Hatem: I can't wait, Sharon. I'm really excited to look at all these fabulous women, both the characters and the actresses.

Sharon Johnson: Same here. So many fabulous, fabulous women in front of and behind the camera on this show. And it's still one of my all time favorite comedies.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It has been really fun to dive back into this show again, a show that I caught but didn't really watch, you know, religiously. And I know that it was one of your shows, but I'm really enjoying revisiting it. And just the performances are just sparkly.

Sharon Johnson: Performances, writing, all of it. Yeah, I have to admit that, before I spent some time recently watching some of the episodes of the last two seasons after our fab four, if you will, we lost a couple of them who decided to leave the show and brought on some other ladies. I had always looked back on those seasons, those last two seasons as not being very good. And I'm really happy to say that in getting a chance to go back and rewatch season six and season seven, they're really great. I mean, yes, they're different, but because we have different ladies, different characters, but they're still really great.

Susan Lambert Hatem: They're really, they're really well written and well performed. The cast is very strong. I think it's hard because it's not the cast, you know, that the show grew up on and that, you know, it's just a different point of view. I know that feeling of, but this is the cast and then the new people would always feel a little bit off. But at the same time, those cast members that they bring in are just amazing actresses. And, I think the hardest thing for me is they become-- Everybody has to be related or something. That just got weird. It was like, I didn't think they needed that. Just bring in someone. They don't have to be somebody's sister or cousin or whatever.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, I'm sure they were thinking, well, this will maybe ease the transition a little bit. It's not just this completely foreign person who suddenly is tossed into the mix, but nevertheless, I thought they blended in really well. I was so pleasantly surprised as I have been with many of the shows that we've been watching and how well they hold up. I'm so happy and pleased about that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, this one's pretty fun. And I think sort of the show, it was such a machine, you know, by the time they start bringing in different cast members, and, I don't know, it just was really delightful. So let's dive in to talking about the women of Designing Women for our Designing Women November. So we had a big discussion in their last episode about who was first on the call sheet, and I'm still not sure.

Sharon Johnson: If I had to pick, I would guess it was Dixie Carter.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, me too.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, I mean, I know that Linda Bloodworth-Thomason has said she had worked with all of them before on other projects, but still, the show is called Sugarbakers.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yep.

Sharon Johnson: So it would surprise me greatly if Dixie Carter weren't first on the call sheet.

Melissa Roth: Yeah, it's actually more interesting who's next.

Sharon Johnson: Which we also don't have an answer to, but maybe it has to do with the order that they appear on the credits. Maybe that's telling.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But as Melissa pointed out, it's like alphabetical order. I don't know. Anyway, okay, I think we should start with Dixie Carter. So Designing Women if you're just joining us and you didn't listen to our first Designing Women episode--

Sharon Johnson: If I may, though. I was just going back over their names just to make sure it was correct, because my brain chooses not to cooperate sometimes. They're not in alphabetical order because if they were, Delta Burke would be first in the credits, followed by Dixie Carter. And Dixie Carter is first in the credits, is she not? That's my recollection. Again, my recollection is not always to be trusted, so I'm hoping you guys will be able.

Melissa Roth: Yeah, I think she's first.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right. So now we're thinking it's Dixie Carter. She definitely had seniority, so I'm going to give it to her.

Sharon Johnson: And her character is the head of the business. Even though it's an ensemble, her character is the lead of the group. It's her house, her character's house. So for those reasons, I'd be surprised, but at some level, it doesn't matter. But still. And listeners, if you know, because we haven't been able to find out, please let us know who is first on the call sheet in Designing Women

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's sort of interesting because I don't think it works the same as in-- I think for sitcoms, everybody's called. Right? Like, you just show up nine to five, Monday through Friday, and do the show. So it's slightly different. And if you're not needed, you're sitting in your dressing room, but somebody has to be number one still. You still have a call sheet, so.

Sharon Johnson: Right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, well, let’s going to say it's Dixie Carter, since it is the Sugarbaker firm and she is the number one in the business.

Sharon Johnson: Makes sense to me.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, so Julia Sugarbaker is the president and founder of Sugarbaker Associates, the interior design firm set in Atlanta, Georgia. And she is classy, and she is feisty, and she is Southern, and she is very outspoken when it comes to feminist and sort of liberal perspectives, but also just protecting kind of her tribe. Right? I think one of the first big speeches is the one the night the lights went out in Georgia, and she's kind of protecting her sister.

Julia Sugarbaker: Yes. And I gather from your comments, there are a couple of other things you don't know, Marjorie. For example, you probably didn't know that Suzanne was the only contestant in Georgia pageant history to sweep every category except Congeniality. That is not something the women in my family aspire to anyway. Or that when she walked down the runway in her swimsuit, five contestants quit on the spot. Or that when she emerged from the isolation booth to answer the question, what would you do to prevent war? She spoke so eloquently of patriotism, battlefields, and diamond tiaras, grown men wept. And you probably didn't know, Marjorie, that Suzanne was not just any Miss Georgia. She was THE Miss Georgia. She didn't twirl just a baton. That baton was on fire. And when she threw that baton into the air, it flew higher, further, faster than any baton has ever flown before, hitting a transformer and showering the darkened arena with sparks. And when it finally did come down, Marjorie, my sister caught that baton, and 12,000 people jumped to their feet for 16 and one half minutes of uninterrupted thunderous ovation as flames illuminated her tear-stained face. And that, Marjorie, just so you will know, and your children will someday know, is the night the lights went out in Georgia.

Sharon Johnson: That is the one I think most people will remember, and rightly so. But she does have a little bit of a speech in the first episode. They're in a restaurant, and poor Ray Don decides to come up and, try to interrupt them. And she lets him have it as nicely and as, Southernly as she possibly can, while still making her feelings known to him.

Melissa Roth: I can just hear her say Ray Don.

Sharon Johnson: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's such a defining moment for that character in that opening. It really is sort of, I would say the most memorable part of that pilot and then the most clear relationship in that pilot is Julia Sugarbaker and her sister Delta Burke. But so Dixie Carter was born Dixie Virginia Carter on May 25, 1939 in McLemoresville, Tennessee. And she grew up in Memphis and started working in theater. Moved to New York, took several years off to raise her daughters, and then returned to work in 1974 in soap operas and theatre. She worked on the soap operas One Life to Live and The Edge of Night amongst a few others in the late 70s. And then started doing more 70s and 80s primetime series, Different Strokes and Greatest American Hero, one of my favorites. And then Filthy Rich, which was created by Linda Bloodworth-Thompson and where they met. After Designing Women she continued to do stage work. She starred in Family Law and did a really great run in season three of Desperate Housewives. And in, Huntingtondon, Tennessee, there is the Dixie Carter Performing Arts and Academic Achievement Center named after her, which I think is lovely.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. As you mentioned rather infamously. Or the thing that brought her to Designing Women is working with Linda Bloodworth-Thompson on Filthy Rich along with Delta Burke. And I believe both Annie Potts and Jean Smart also worked with Linda on other projects before, too. And Linda just basically said, come on with me. We're going to go do this show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know, but it sounds like there's some stories to, particularly Delta Burke's casting. So I'm, hopeful to hear more about that soon.

Melissa Roth: So just in FYI, I just played the Designing Women opening and it stars Delta Burke. She is the first one to come up in the credits. Delta Burke, Dixie Carter, Annie Potts, Jean Smart.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's alphabetical order, too.

Sharon Johnson: It is. And because I've been watching rewatching seasons six and seven, Delta Burke, ah, is not in the show any longer. So, of course, not in the credits. Exactly.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We might have to ask.

Sharon Johnson: Thank you, Melissa. Appreciate that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, then, let's go to Delta Burke.

Sharon Johnson: Delta Burke played Suzanne Sugarbaker in the first five sesons. She's Julia's younger sister and a silent partner at Sugarbaker's. She's also a former beauty queen, most notably a former Miss Georgia. She was born in 1956 in Orlando, Florida, and is a beauty pageant winner in real life. She was Miss Flame for the Orlando Fire Department and was Miss Florida. She as we mentioned, previously starred in Filthy Rich with Dixie Carter, and did a number of guest stars on television, including the Fall Guy, Fantasy Island, Love Boat, Remington Steele, Who's the Boss. And from 84 to 86, she starred in First and Ten. And after that, she leaves to go to Designing Women. After Designing Women she got her own sitcom called Delta, and then starred in Woman of the House and did a number of guest stars on a number of shows over the years, including an episode of Now & Again, which also starred Annie Potts, where they played sisters.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I've forgotten about that one.

Sharon Johnson: Yes. Yes. She has been married to actor Gerald McRaney since 1989, and they met when she guest starred on a Simon and Simon episode in 1987.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's so sweet. And then he came on the Designing Women show as her ex-. I thought that was just. I mean, clearly they were just having a blast and seems like a very sweet relationship.

Sharon Johnson: They're still married.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So, yeah, we talked a little bit in the last episode about the, you know, the weight issue being such a huge tabloid, like, just endless discussion, just drove me a little bit crazy, I think because of the. She was a beauty pageant, both as the character and in real life. But, you know, I don't know, I just. That's, sort of such an 80s thing to be. So, I mean, I guess it's a star thing. There's a constant, oh, my God, look who's gained weight, and look what they look like now.

Sharon Johnson: I hate to say it, but it's still a thing now. Recently, as her talk show has come back, Kelly Clarkson came back and has lost a lot of weight and got a lot of Internet trolling about it for-- Why? I mean, who cares? You know, who cares if she's more comfortable? Who cares? But it's still something that women are the ones that constantly have to deal with. Don't ever remember the hue and cry of that kind being directed at any men over their weight. I'm sure maybe it's happened a few times, but not nearly in the same way that women continue to have to deal with it. But that said, Linda Bloodworth-Thomason did write that beautiful episode for her. They Shoot Fat Women, Don't They?

Suzanne Sugarbaker: You know, since I put on a little weight. I mean, they don't have as many cute things in my size right now, but. Well, I thought this blue silk was kind of nice.

Julia Sugarbaker: Looks a little matronly.

Mary Jo Shivley: You know, Suzanne, you ought to go over to that specialty shop in Lenox Square. They have some great things that are very expensive looking, you know, designer things for, you know.

Suzanne Sugarbaker: What?

Mary Jo Shivley: Big and beautiful.

Suzanne Sugarbaker: I beg your pardon?

Mary Jo Shivley MJ: Well, you know, that's the name of the shop. Big and Beautiful.

Suzanne Sugarbaker: Well, thank you very much, Mary Jo, for the hot tip. I just don't think I need to patronize any store that would call itself by that name. But since you think it's such a good idea, why don't we just go all the way and start shopping at Fat and Fabulous?

Julia Sugarbaker: Suzanne, you don't have to be so sensitive. Mary Jo's just trying to be helpful.

Suzanne Sugarbaker: I don't care what she's trying to be. I don't appreciate being told to go to the stout shop. I'll admit I have put on a few pounds here and there, but you all act like I should be ordering fabric over at Georgia Tent and Awning.

Sharon Johnson: Delta Burke gave an amazing performance, kind of a thumbing her nose at all the people who were coming after her about her weight. So good for her, is what I have to say. Good for her. Good for both of them.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Good for both of them. And I kind of love. There was also some fodder in the trades and the People Magazines of the day that Delta Burke was unhappy, you know, by the end of the season five and left the show probably over money, I assume, but also that there was some rift between her and Linda Bloodworth-Thomason. So I was so thrilled they were able to then work together again professionally on Woman of the House, which we talked about how just delightfully surprising that show is. I think it's got just an amazing cast. Let's talk about another amazing cast of women. I can't wait to look at that show at some point. I think we were going to have to maybe in our lost-year wonders.  

Sharon Johnson: Was it a single season?  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, it was a single season.

Sharon Johnson: I think we have to add it to the list when we'd like to.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Add it to the list because she's just. It's just a very. At least the few episodes I saw. I think we saw two episodes, really just great. So very intrigued by that creative relationship, which clearly was a very inspiring one for them and both. And so I wish we had been able to see more. Anyway, so super fun. I also, had sort of forgotten about that First and Ten show. I kind of vaguely remember that. The football show where she-- It was very much Ted Lasso, right? Like she's the, you know, it was early Ted Lasso, but with American football, where she's the ex-wife who gets the team in the divorce and then is, you know, the owner of the football team. And, that was, quite a fun concept, I thought. And so she had been kind of the star of a show before Designing Women and left that show in season three, because though it was, the opening of the story revolved around her, it was really about the football team. And so I think she saw that Designing Women was going to be more about the women.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, excellent.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And then, I'm just a big, huge fan of Annie Potts, who plays Mary Jo Shively, is basically like, in some ways, she and Charlene are the only one doing any actual work around her. She's the main designer. She's not a figurehead. She is apparently, doing the actual designing. And she's sarcastic and also kind of kind. She's kind of sweet. She's got two kids and just is delightfully played by Annie Potts.

Mary Jo Shivley: Oh, no. What's the catch? I mean, why aren't you going out with him yourself?

Suzanne Sugarbaker: Because I don't want to go out with him. I've known him too long. Anyway, he's darling and funny and recently divorced, and you'll just love him.

Mary Jo Shivley: Recently divorced?

Suzanne Sugarbaker: Oh, no.

Mary Jo Shivley: Now I know I'm not going.

Suzanne Sugarbaker: Now what is the matter with that? You recently divorced, too.

Mary Jo Shivley: Yes, I know, but men are different when they've just gotten out of a marriage. They've got something to prove. They're macho and crazy and nuts, and they all talk about their ex-wives, and they've all got to have sex with on the first date. And frankly, I just don't think I'm up to it. No, no. Count me out. Not now. Maybe not ever.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Annie Potts was born Anne Hampton Potts on October 28, 1952, in Nashville, Tennessee. She's another Tennessee girl. I did like that they got actual Southern women, not for every role, but for many roles. She started in television and movies in the 70s, Annie Potts did. She was in shows like Family and Busting Loose. She made her feature-- I thought I didn't know this. She made her feature film debut in 1978’s Corvette Summer, which co-starred Mark Hamill, and she was nominated for a Golden Globe. And I didn't know anything about this movie.

Sharon Johnson: I saw this movie in a theater.

Susan Lambert Hatem: You did?

Sharon Johnson: I did, absolutely. I don't remember a lot about it. But, you know, I do have this sense of when I first saw Designing Women that I had heard of these women before. So I'm gonna guess that for Annie Potts, it was from Corvette Summer that she was in this movie with Mark Hamill.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, and ‘cause it was Mark Hamill's movie after Star Wars.

Sharon Johnson: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Right. It was just a regular movie. And then he was such a phenomenon. He had this, like, you know, career going along as a young Hollywood actor. You know, kind of bit parts, a couple of good things. And then friggin’ Star Wars, my guess is he already had this movie to do because it comes out in 1978. So it's right after Star Wars. But it's literally Mark Hamill's first role in a movie, it looks like, after Star Wars. I'm sure Star Wars was somewhere still in a theater when that movie came out.

Sharon Johnson: I'm sure it stayed in theaters for a year because that's what happened back then. You know, movies could literally stay in theaters for a year.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But, yeah. So I'm curious, to track it down and watch it. I also thought it was interesting in 1980, she was in another one season show called the Good Time Girls. About women sharing an apartment in Washington, DC during World War II. Again, another perfectly good idea for a TV show. And one with Annie Potts. That sounds great. I'd love to also take a look at that show.  

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, same. If it's something that we can find.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, I'd love to see it

Susan Lambert Hatem: I had never heard of that. The Good Time Girls. And then, of course, she was in other, television shows and did an episode of Remington Steele. I think there's kind of like a six-degrees of separation for Remington Steele. Where maybe it always comes back to Remington Steele. That everyone somehow is connected to Remington Steele.

Sharon Johnson: It seems only fair, I guess.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But, of course, I think I remember her most from her breakout role in 1984, Ghostbusters, as the receptionist, Janine Melnitz. She was just hilarious and just so great and so memorable. Not a lot of screen time. And she's up against comic geniuses, arguably. And she is too. And, completely memorable and all of that. She, of course, continued on in a lot of amazing movies and television roles after Designing Women. Probably one of the other most famous ones is the voice of Bo Peep in the Toy Story franchise. And she starred in the late 90s, early 2000s television show Any Day Now. And of course, most recently in Young Sheldon as Connie ‘Meemaw’ Tucker. And so, I mean, again, I would kind of Annie Potts is one of those people I would watch in anything.

Sharon Johnson: It's so interesting that she's had such a diversity of types of roles too, over the years. But, yeah, she's so great. She's definitely so. She's definitely so great and so watchable.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I love her.  

Sharon Johnson: Okay. And then last but certainly not least, we have Jean Smart as Charlene Frazier Stillfield in seasons one through five of Designing Women And she guest starred in the first episode to transition Jan Hooks as her sister Carleen. And Charlene was Julia's late husband's former secretary and now is the office manager of Sugarbakers. Charlene came from Poplar Bluff, Missouri, and was one of a large family, many children. She is naive and big hearted, but her naivete can sometimes be annoying to some of her coworkers.  

Charlene Frazier: Well, house is all mine. Well, y'all want to sign the decorating papers? How soon do you think you can get started?

Julia Sugarbaker: Charlie, a few things have been happening around here. Nothing of any significance. We just wondered if there was some explanation.

Charlene Frazier: Oh, you mean like things moving around and that painting falling off the wall?

Julia Sugarbaker: Yes.  

Charlene Frazier: Oh, there's a logical explanation for that.

Julia Sugarbaker: Yeah, I knew there would be.

Charlene Frazier: House is haunted!

Sharon Johnson: She, in a lot of ways, is the heart and soul and maybe the viewer's touchstone in the show because of her populous kinds of things that she likes, from Elvis to all kinds of other popular things like that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Like there's a lot of, like she's always about to go to a concert or something. She's always planning some event.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I love that she's from poplar Bluff, Missouri, which is where Linda Bloodworth-Thomason is actually from.

Sharon Johnson: Exactly.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Which I found out is right across the border from Arkansas. So very close to Arkansas, where her husband, Harry Thomason is from. Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Jean Elizabeth Smart, the actress who portrayed Charlene, was born on September 13, 1951 in Seattle, Washington, and did regional theater in the Pacific Northwest. After college in the 70s and early 80s, she also started working in television and lots of ladies-driven shows, including Alice, Facts of Life, and, yes, Remington Steele, which I feel like I have to go back. Did we notice that, that she was in Remington Steel?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, yeah. She's in the episode, the cookie episode.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, the cookie episode with everybody. That's what you. Because there's so many stars in that. Gina Davis, for some reason. Gina Davis in it. So I totally forgot that Jean Smart was also in it. And there's, like, another couple people in that episode. That's crazy.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. And that's not the-- That is not the reason it's my favorite episode, but nevertheless, it doesn't hurt. So after she left Designing Women she did mostly TV movies and films in the 90s, including playing the famous serial killer in Overkill, the Aileen Wuornos Story. In the 2000s, she guest starred in Frasier and won two primetime Emmys for outstanding guest actress, which is something I'd forgotten. I'd forgotten she was on Frasier.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Anyway, she married Richard Gillian, who she met on the Designing Women set when he guest starred as Mary Jo's boyfriend, JD Shackelford. There was a whole lot of loving going on.

Susan Lambert Hatem: There was a lot of loving going on. And we forgot to talk about the fact that Dixie Carter was married to Hal Holbrook, which they convinced to be on the show as her boyfriend, and then they get married. Right? Yes. Yeah. That's so funny. And Hal Holbrook, kind of, again, just brings a level of class to kind of everything, so.

Sharon Johnson: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Susan Lambert Hatem: A lot of love stories surrounding Designing Women which is kind of neat.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Jean Smart has been nominated and won primetime Emmys for a number of things over the years. as we mentioned, she won twice on Frasier, once on a rather short-lived show called Samantha Who?, which I loved, and twice most recently on Hacks. She also has a Tony nomination for her performance in the Broadway revival of The Man Who Came to Dinner. She's just an amazing actress and is always someone that classes up the joint when she shows up.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Phenomenal, phenomenally talented, and just so great in Hacks. I mean, really is the show for me, for sure.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, absolutely.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: So those are original Designing Women

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. And Meshach Taylor, but he's not a woman of Designing Women so we won’t talk about him. We talked about him in the first episode.

Sharon Johnson: Yes. Those are women of Designing Women And all of them were very well designed characters, played beautifully by each and every one of them. and it was-- It's that magic that sometimes you get, whether it be in a TV show or a movie, when the stars align and everything just seems to fit together and work together.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. It really is. It really is a show that feels like magic. Like the Golden Girls, like, you know, Friends, like, any of those ensemble shows that, you know, sort of-- There's a, there's a Sex and the City element to it. In some ways, I was realizing, like, you know, because they are often talking about relationships in that workplace comedy. Those discussions were so, there weren't a lot of them on 80s television because there weren't a lot of women workplace, you know, we see it with It's a Living. But I feel like Designing Women was even more because of the family aspect. They were actually family and co-workers. So maybe that's why they had to have all the new Designing Women also be families.

Sharon Johnson: Well, I think part of it too is, unlike men, I think women at work do talk about their personal lives to each other. And I don't know that men talk about their personal lives when they're together the way that women do. And it also probably the setting kind of helped that cross discussion as well. They're all sitting in one big room, so anything that they have going on, anything that's happening, it's kind of hard to hide it from anybody. Probably helped that they were family and friends. So of course they're gonna talk about what's going on in their lives and some of the challenges they're facing and their relationships and all that kind of stuff. But it's what made the show so much fun and so great that they, that they did talk about those things.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. And I love that. Then the show got, there was a lot of physical comedy. We talked about that last episode, but, yeah. All right. But then. So everybody kind of lasts for five seasons, is that right? Yeah, five seasons.

Sharon Johnson: As often happens with TV shows, people start leaving.

Susan Lambert Hatem: People start leaving. So Delta Burke and Jean Smart leaves.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So then Julia Duffy comes in. Correct, as Suzanne's cousin.

Sharon Johnson: Correct.

Susan Lambert Hatem: To be a partner at Sugarbaker and Associates from New York City, moving back to the South. And Julia Duffy, I mean, come on, she's just really, really good and really good at playing that sort of slightly like not quite the Delta Burke. Right. So she's spoiled, but more like the character that she played on Newhart was, you know, slightly similar.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, her-- This character, Allison, as well as a character she played on Newhart, were spoiled women who felt superior to other women.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Sharon Johnson: Whether it be because of the way they looked or because of what they perceived, their social status or their money, they felt that they were better than other people. And those shows tended to spend some time showing them that they really weren't.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. They learned valuables along the way.

Sharon Johnson: Allison talks a lot about going to Wellesley and being in New York and around all these people, and it turns out, well, really not so much. What she's describing is maybe not exactly what happened, but nevertheless, she brought that to the show and I think it gave them the others something to play against, which was really great, but in a different way than they did with Suzanne.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. So the actress Julia Duffy was actually born Julia Margaret Hines, which I didn't know, on June 27, 1951, in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Isn't that the home of Mary Richards? Well, the new home it is indeed, yes. That's always-- Whenever I think of Minneapolis, I'm thinking of Mary Richards. She studied at the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York City and also started working in soaps. That was the way in. It feels like less the way in than it used to be. I don't hear a lot about people going from soaps to TV, but maybe you just don't hear about it.

Sharon Johnson: Well, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that there are so few soaps anymore. There are only four left, and at one point there may have been as many as eleven.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Wow.

Sharon Johnson: A lot of them shot in New York. And it was great work, if you could get it. So not unlike Law & Order, with their litany of theater actors who have shown up on those shows over the years, a whole host of people have gone from New York soap operas, whether it be onward in television or in movies. Both Susan Sarandon and Tommy Lee Jones, both were in soap operas in New York early in their careers. Both are Oscar winners. I'm sure there might be others, but those are the ones that I always think of.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. So I do remember her from The Doctors briefly.

Sharon Johnson: I do not. I didn't watch The Doctors.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I watched The Doctors because I was sort of vaguely interested in doctors. What I did also find out in our little research was that she was actually considered for the role of Diane Chambers for Cheers.

Sharon Johnson: I did not know that.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: And didn't get it. But she did a guest role in the first season and, I'm wondering if they were like, oh, we like her, but, you know, but she doesn't get the role. But, you know, we'll find something for her.

Sharon Johnson: Which is great. I mean, which was really nice of them, I think.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. But she joins the cast of Newhart in its second season in 1983, with Peter Scolari. She's playing Stephanie Vanderkellen, and again, another sort of spoiled rich girl who has, been kind of taking care of her whole life, but she's sort of running away from that life and an impending marriage, I think, and basically becomes the housekeeper, which is a very funny thing. But I have to say, having sort of fairly recently rechecked out Newhart, it's really when Peter Scolari and she show up, that's when it becomes the show that you kind of remember Newhart being. And I think it is partially because of the two of them and also just the other things kind of fall into place. The rhythm of the show is found for sure in that second season. She played that role for seven seasons and, earned several Emmy nominations and a Golden Globe. She's a delightful actress to watch.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, I enjoyed her on Newhart as well. I didn't remember seeing her, at least as I'm sitting here now. I don't recall seeing her on Cheers, although I'm sure I did, because I watched every single, solitary episode of Cheers.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes, I think it's season one episode-- I don't know. It's called Diane's Friend or something.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, yes, I remember now. I think it's called Any Friend of Diane's, where she plays Diane's friend from college.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Rebecca Prout:  It’s all right. I know that you worked here.

Diane Chambers: All right. How did you find out?

Rebecca Prout:  I called your mother.

Diane Chambers: Oh.  

Rebecca Prout:  She took her head out of the oven long enough to fill me in.  

Diane Chambers: God, I've missed you.  

Rebecca Prout:  I'll never forget those long afternoons in the quad, drinking champagne, eating brioche with strawberry preserves, reading and talking Schopenhauer.

Diane Chambers: Yeah, well, enough Schope-talk.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, fun. Yes. She was terrific on that episode.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: So funny  

Sharon Johnson: And so terrific on Newhart. And as we talked about earlier, there were some similarities to that character and the character that she played on Designing Women as well. But she's a terrific comedic actress, and it was nice to see her again on Designing Women when she joined the show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, again, they brought in some really just talented people.

Sharon Johnson: Indeed. Well, speaking of talented people, Jan Hooks also joined Designing Women in season six, playing Charlene's sister, Carleen Frazier Dobber. She also had similar characteristics to Charlene's in her demeanor and her, her likes and just sort of the way she comported herself. She was very similar, but was a, broader, more physical character. The things that they gave her to do tended to be more along, maybe some of the things that Jan Hooks did when she was on Saturday Night Live, because she did come from Saturday Night Live into Designing Women So she was on the show for two seasons. She was in the process of getting a divorce when she came to replace Charlene, and her ex-husband showed up occasionally on the show as well.

Carleen Frazier Dobber I met a lot of people. Everybody was real nice, except for this one guy who kept wanting to stick his tongue in my ear. And I said, excuse me, my divorce is not final. So I suggest you take that rude remark to someone who is not still misses Duane Dobber.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, that was good. What did you say?

Carleen Frazier Dobber: Well, he looked kind of confused. And then he said, who's Duane Dobber? And I said, well, he's only the number one import auto salesman in all of southeast Missouri. And Mary Jo squirted him with her gun.

Charlene Frazier Stillwell: Mary Jo, you took a squirt gun to a singles bar?

May Jo Shivley: Yeah. It really comes in handy. Guy says the wrong thing, you just whip out the gun and make a big wet spot on the front of his pants.

Sharon Johnson: She, too, is a terrific addition to the show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: There are a lot of exes on Designing Women. Like, there's, you know, all that romance of happening between actors, and there's just a lot, you know. Well, it helps that Delta Burke has been divorced three times when the show starts. So she's got three, but Annie Potts has one, you know, Carleen has one. It's just, I don't know, it's sort of interesting, now that when you just said it, I was like, oh, yeah, another ex. That sort of is a recurring kind of thing.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. I mean, looking back on it, it is kind of too bad that none of our women found that forever relationship. I mean, I think--

Susan Lambert Hatem: Like Julia Sugarbreaker did.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. But I think I was about to say, I think that might have been the one, if not for the fact that they, apparently they decided to kill off Hal Holbrook's character because he went over to Evening Shade.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Oh, right.

Sharon Johnson: ‘Cause he was a recurring character on Designing Women, but they made him a regular, I believe, on Evening Shade. So, I get it. But still. And Julia did go on to do some dating later on. But, you know, she'd had the two great loves of her life, but still, we could have had found somebody for somebody else, for Carleen or for--

Susan Lambert Hatem: Mary Jo.

Sharon Johnson: Mary Jo. My brain has left the building.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So, many names now. So Julia Duffy is only on for season six.

Sharon Johnson: Correct.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Then Julia Duffy goes away and Judith Ivey comes in.

Sharon Johnson: Correct.

Susan Lambert Hatem: She's a millionaire. She's not family.

Sharon Johnson: That's right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But I do love that she's from Texas. Yeah. And so she comes in and basically kind of shakes things up. Right? Like, so I love that. And we love Judith Ivey. She has two Tony awards. She was born September 4, 1951, in El Paso, Texas. So once again, she's casting to type. She made her film debut in 1984, which I didn't know, with The Lonely Guy opposite Steve Martin, and did a lot of movies and television, including a guest starring role in Cagney & Lacy. So that was very exciting to realize. But not Remington Steele. But I bet we could tie her to Remington Steele through somebody there.

Sharon Johnson: I'm sure are just a couple of degrees of separation between her and Remington Steele. There have to be. But I really enjoyed her character, BJ, on the show. She brought a totally different energy and, just was a totally different character from any of the other women that we had seen before. She didn't come from money. She married this millionaire who died at their wedding reception, left her all of his money, much to the chagrin, I'm sure, of his family and everything. But still, she was very down to earth and loved to laugh and was a really great character. I would have liked-- If the show had gone on, it would have been great to see more of her.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. Yeah. Because she was kind of the first outsider in some ways. And so I think that was a really good thing to kind of shake it up a little bit. That's all the women that played the main characters and that's a lot of women, which I love. And then, we had some cool guest stars and recurring characters. My favorite was Sheryl Lee Ralph, who comes in season seven as a showgirl Anthony marries after he's trying to get over the fact that he was basically stood up for his wedding. And, the girls take him to Vegas and, he meets and marries her that night. And there's a couple of episodes where they're married. And, she's great. Sheryl Lee Ralph is fantastic. She's always fantastic, very memorable.

Sharon Johnson: Absolutely, absolutely. And then, of course, none of us can forget Alice Ghostley, who played Bernice Clifton. she was a best friend to Suzanne and Julia's mother and was actually on the show throughout all seven seasons, which surprised me again as I was looking into it. For some reason, I thought maybe she'd come along a lot later, but I'm guessing I'd have to look at the episode count. I'm guessing she probably wasn't in very often early on, and they just realized, oh, we really like her, let's bring her back. But she was sort of an older version of some of our women, thanks to what they called an arterial flow condition, tended to speak her mind, tended to say inappropriate things, do inappropriate things, wear, you know-- Just about anything you could think of, she seemed to be game for.

Bernice Clifton: Happy new year, Suzanne.

Suzanne Sugarbaker: Happy new year to you too, Bernice, your little fruitcake.

Julia Sugarbaker: Suzanne.

Suzanne Sugarbaker: Oh, she knows I'm just kidding. She loves me to call her that. Don't you, Bernice?

Bernice Clifton: It's okay. I wouldn't mind, though, if, for example, we were at the White House.

Suzanne Sugarbaker: Okay, I'll remember that.

Mary Jo Shivley: Bernice.

Bernice Clifton: What?

Mary Jo Shivley: Why are you wearing your Christmas tree skirt?

Bernice Clifton: Well, this is the skirt you gave me for Christmas.

Mary Jo Shivley: Yes, I know. It's not to wear. It's a Christmas tree skirt. You're supposed to put it around the base of your Christmas tree.

Bernice Clifton: Oh. Oh, well, no wonder. I like to never got this thing on. I finally just let the waist out and tied it with a belt.

Sharon Johnson: And she was nominated twice for an Emmy for that role, which is really great for a guest performance. Yeah. Alice Ghostley was really terrific on the show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, and she, comes from Bewitched and Mayberry RFD, but she's also just sort of been in everything. Right? It feels like she definitely was all over television in the 60s, 70s and, 80s. And, yeah, always brings a great element.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. You know, you're in for a little bit of a ride when the door opens and she shows up. You never know what the heck she's gonna say.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. She's one of those character actors that make you laugh almost walking in the door. Right? You're immediately drawn to watch her. Yeah. Another recurring character was for season five. Lexi Randall played the young girl who stays with Julia while her parents were in Europe. It's a weird thing. I think they were trying something.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. Her parents, basically abandoned her and left her behind to go off to Europe and do God knows what. So Julia ends up being essentially her guardian, caretaker, parental figure. Poor kid. Yeah, they definitely were trying something, I think.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, it was interesting because I think they didn't have a lot of kids on the show. Right? There were a lot of women, not necessarily a lot of children or a lot of parenting episodes, which is significant. That's a significant choice to make because you could have gone other ways. I think Mary Jo is the only one who talks a lot about her kids.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. Well, she and Julia are the only ones that have. Take it back. Well, the only ones that have kids at the start of the show. Charlene, has a baby near the end, towards the end of the show, but Julia's son is off at college and so he only shows up occasionally. So it's Mary Jo's kids who are the ones that we, we hear about ,that we see occasionally on the show because they're young. And when the show starts, they're both in grade school, I believe. So they're, the ones that we see primarily.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And so, Priscilla Weems plays Mary Jo's daughter for five seasons. So they kept her on, which is, always nice. Sometimes they change out child actors for reasons.

Sharon Johnson: They probably think the audience won't notice. Just like they didn't think we'd notice that there were three Cagneys.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I didn't until recently. I had forgotten. I was completely, completely fooled. I, of course, always like to talk about, by the numbers.

Sharon Johnson: Yes.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And for this show, Designing Women, of course, the show was created by a woman, Linda Bloodworth-Thomason. But very interesting numbers for this show. So seven seasons. They had 19 directors over the course of seven seasons, three of whom are women. Iris Dugow, Ellen Gittelsohn and Arlene Sanford. Iris directed five episodes, which I thought was pretty interesting. Arlene Sanford, it was actually one of her first credits, I think, like her third, credit. she is still working, which is kind of neat. So we might try to track her down. And I was intrigued that though not a woman, Asaad Kelada, who is from Egypt and was a big TV director in the 70s and 80s. did indeed do Designing Women. He also did episodes of Phyllis, Rhoda, One Day at a Time, WKRP in Cincinnati. And for our purposes, 77 episodes of The Facts of Life. So I thought that was interesting. But not Remington Steele.

Sharon Johnson: Well, it looked like he was a sitcom director.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Sharon Johnson: Okay.

Susan Lambert Hatem: True.

Sharon Johnson: We'll let him slide for that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We'll allow. So a lot of writers. But it is, noteworthy that Linda Bloodworth-Thomason wrote 73 episodes of Designing Women herself. Which is a lot. But there were 28 writers listed on the show, including Linda Bloodworth-Thomason. 20 of those 28 writers were women. That may be our biggest percentage of shows we've looked at so far.

Sharon Johnson: I wouldn't be surprised if it were near the top of all TV shows of all time. Still, that's pretty remarkable.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's pretty remarkable. It's very mindful. You don't get to those numbers by accident in the 80s. I don't think you get to them by accident now. But, some of the notable writers that were on the show. Cassandra Clark. Emily Marshall, who worked on Laverna, Shirley Newhart and the Bob Newhart Show. Rhoda, Angie, Mary, also WKRP in Cincinnati. The sitcom version of Remington Steele. And what was also interesting, and I'm going to say fairly unusual, I don't usually do the count on the producers because there's usually not any women. But out of twelve producers, listed on this show, including, Linda Bloodworth-Thomason. There were six women, half of the producers credited on this show were women. Most of them were also writers. Pamela Norris, writer on 29 episodes, also producer on the show, Emily Marshall, also writer, Norman Safford Vella and Dee LaDuke. And then Judith Burke was listed as a coordinating producer, but she was also an editor on the show.

Sharon Johnson: Amazing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Those are some pretty, pretty healthy parody numbers, for sure, for this show, which is, again, very impressive. And, I'm very happy to see that.

Sharon Johnson: I'm happy to see it, too. Although I guess at the end of the day, not surprised that Linda would have, since she was in such control of the show, would have made sure that there were a number, significant number of women behind the scenes and probably with an understanding that it was really what was needed for her show, for this show, to have those female voices, around to help shape the female voices that were on screen.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I think that is, true. I think that's great. I'm curious to see, if there's another ad show that has that many women on it. But yeah, that was surprising. I, mean, again, not terribly surprising in some ways that there were women in all of those categories, but the number of them was actually really quite significant. I thought so. Yeah. And, you know, we really need to talk some more about Linda Bloodworth-Thomason, but maybe we saved that for another episode or two.

Sharon Johnson: There you go. That makes sense.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm so excited. So shall we? I think we've talked about the women of Designing Women

Sharon Johnson: We have indeed.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Have we forgotten anybody? Did we forget any? I mean, there were lots of guest stars. Obviously, there were a ton of guest stars, but I thought it was important to kind of take a moment and really honor kind of all these women that, created such, ah, just groundbreaking work and really indelible characters.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah. I can't think of anybody else, of any other women, that were on the show that played a significant role. I think we've pretty much hit them all.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. There's some guest stars I'm sure we missed.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, always there, always. For instance, Dolly Parton, who was a guest star on, that, that's true.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. I mean, they were the big guest stars.

Sharon Johnson: Yes. But still, you know, week in, week out, I think we've hit the most significant ones.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Now, if we include the additional season six, seven Designing Women are you going to change who your designing woman character is?

Sharon Johnson: No, I don't think so. No? No?

Sharon Johnson: I think I'm good. What about you?

Susan Lambert Hatem: No, I think it's still Mary Jo. All right. Should you take us into our audiography?

Sharon Johnson: Yes, please. In today's audiography, we have a few things to point out for you. First of all, you can check out Designing Women online. You can also read Harry Thomason’s memoir, Brother Dog, Southern Tales and Hollywood Adventures. And then, last but not least, of course, there's Linda's novel, Liberating Paris.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes, so I have both those books, and I'm going to read through them, but I haven't yet. Thank you all so much for listening to 80s TV Ladies. If you are liking this show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Goodpods, or wherever you listen.

Sharon Johnson: And if you're really liking the show, which we hope you are, consider supporting us on Patreon. You can help us make more episodes, and you get videos, perks, and ad free episodes. Go to patreon.com/80sTVladies.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Be sure to tune in to our next episode. We're going to continue Designing Women November with a two-part amazing interview with the show's creator. Yes, we will be talking with Linda Bloodworth-Thomason herself in two very special episodes. Stay tuned. You do not want to miss it.

Sharon Johnson: My head is still spinning from that episode. I still have a hard time believing it actually happened. Like so many things related to this podcast.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We can't wait to share it with you.

Sharon Johnson: In the meantime, we wish you a very happy Thanksgiving and holiday season. We hope you had a great Halloween.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I would like to take a moment to acknowledge that this is just another time of great, tragic global events yet again, and give a thought to those who are facing the terror killings and kidnapping of hostages by Hamas in Israel and the horrible war that's affecting innocent civilians in Gaza. I know people are in great crisis and it can be very difficult to have hope, I think. And yet I'm also going to have it. And, I don't know, Sharon, sometimes you're like, what are we doing? Is it worth anything? But, I think it is important to at least acknowledge that there's a lot of suffering going on, and to work for kindness and hope and peace and justice.

Sharon Johnson: Absolutely. To all of that. And at the end of the day, I know sometimes it feels overwhelming, that what can I, as a person do to change any of that? And the reality is, of course, that none of us has a magic wand to make all this stuff go away or make it better. But as Susan said, kindness, approach things in your day to day from a place of hope and a place of kindness will go a long way to spread that kindness and that hope in ways that you'll never necessarily see. But I don't know about you, but anytime someone treats me that way, I know it makes me feel better. It makes me want to treat other people in a way that will make them feel better and hopefully spread that around. So I, would start with that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I think that's a great place to start.

Sharon Johnson: In any event, we hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch in the meantime, all of which will lead us toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Take care.

Sharon Johnson: Thanks for listening.

Amy Englehardt: 80s TV Ladies, so sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh#*ty. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

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