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8TL_213_It’s A Living with The 90’s TV Babies

Melissa Roth: Welcome to 80s TV Ladies. Part of the Weirding Way Media Network.

Amy Englehardt: 80s TV Ladies, so sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh#*ty. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladi

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank you, Melissa. I am Susan.

Sharon Johnson: And I'm Sharon. Welcome to 80s TV Ladies, where we explore female driven television shows from the 1980s and celebrate the people who made them.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Sharon. You know, sometimes I think it's good to get another perspective from another generation.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, I think it's meaningful to look at these shows with fresh eyes, which is why we decided to bring some awesome younger folks who were all born in the 1990s to watch these shows for the first time and tell us what they think.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Now, it's been a long time since we've had them on the show, so we're just going to jump right in.

Sharon Johnson: Please welcome back to 80s TV Ladies, the smart and sassy, clever and classy 90s tv babies, Serita Fontanesi, Sergio Perez, and Megan Ruble.

Serita Fontenesi: Hi.

Megan Ruble: Hello.

Sergio Perez: Hi.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Welcome back. I'm so excited to see you. This is your first appearance in season two. We haven't seen you since season one or heard you since season one.

Serita Fontenesi: Missed you guys.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I missed you. The last time we talked was over Cagney & Lacey.

Serita Fontenesi: Yeah. Lesbian coded icons.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. You took us right back.

Serita Fontenesi: You took us right back on that hill.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know. It's been forever. I don't know what y'all did this summer, so why don't you tell us two cool things?

Serita Fontenesi: I'll start. This is Serita. I use cool loosely. I helped my dog overcome heartworms. So we've been on crate rest. and also, I did make a summer bucket list, and I've almost crossed everything off of it, so that's pretty fun.

Sharon Johnson: That's awesome.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, what's one thing on the list that you crossed off?

Serita Fontenesi: The last thing that I did was I sat in a floaty on Barton Springs here in Austin.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is one of my Austin things to do.

Serita Fontenesi: Come visit. I've got a guest room, two floaties.

Megan Ruble: We can go.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Let's go. Like, right before Rich and I got married, we got married July 31. July 4^th we went to Austin, Texas, and, visited my friend Buzzy, lived there. We saw the bats. We saw everything. And I was like, we're gonna go float down a river. And, and Rich was like, great. And then the day before, he had never done anything like that. And he got all nervous and weird and like, I'm not going to go. I'm not going to go. It's not going to. I'm not going to go.

Serita Fontenesi: I will say the, like, moments before it happened, I panicked, and Michael, my husband, and two of our friends had to help me, like, float across. Like, they coached me through it. So, Rich, I get it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, I. Yeah. And then he went. And then at the end, he was like, this is the greatest idea I had.

Serita Fontenesi: Yeah. I said the same. I was like, wow, this was such a good idea.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's awesome. Okay, Megan.

Megan Ruble: Well, I-- So my summer has been bookended with weddings. So I had one at the start of summer, and I've got one in a couple weeks. And it's awesome. I love weddings, especially ones that I'm in, because then you just get to go to an awesome party, celebrate your friends, and they tell you what to wear. Like, it's, it's incredible. So I've had two, or have had one awesome summer wedding, and we'll have another one soon. Very exciting. I also-- This is kind of lame, but, I had a summer goal to not get sunburned, despite, like, being outdoors and hiking and all of that stuff. And I have so far accomplished that. I got a little singed on the top of my shoulders one time. But we are00-- We are taking care of our skin over here.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is excellent. That's important. Wear sunscreen.

Sharon Johnson: Sounds like a great summer.

Megan Ruble: Yeah, it's been awesome.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is cool. Sergio. I know a little bit, but tell our listeners.

Sergio Perez: I'll tell everybody something they don't know. Let's see. This summer, I did three different play readings for three different queer Filipino playwrights in Los Angeles. They all know each other. Yeah. The ecosystem is very tiny, but I'm glad to finally be a part of it. I've been trying to break into that for a second now. My second cool thing is that this summer, I went to RuPaul's DragCon and got to yell at some protesters because there were protesters right outside, telling everybody as they were walking in that we were all going to hell. And like, no, I'm going to DragCon. And I got to meet a bunch of queens from Drag Race Philippines who I've been meaning to see in person for so long, and they're so iconic, and I was really excited about that.

Sharon Johnson: Drag Race is really taking over the world, is it not?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Sharon Johnson: Oh, my gosh. I did not know they had made it to the Philippines as well. That's awesome.

Sergio Perez: Literally almost every country now has a franchise. It's crazy. It's like McDonald's.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That is fantastic. And I didn't know either of those two things. And I thought I knew what you did this summer.

Sergio Perez: I know what you did this summer.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm making a book movie reference just for those who are been sitting in a, I don't know, a tomb for 20 years. I want to shout out to Brittany Taylor, our friend, for turning me on to Lois Duncan and I Know What You Did Last Summer. But first book she turned me on to was Killing Mr. Griffin, which is an earlier book that she wrote and she was trying to option it in ‘90.

Sharon Johnson: Yeah, I know. That was something that she really, really wanted to be a part of making a film about.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Brittney was amazing. Casting and then like pre-trend crap. And that was amazing. ‘Cause then it was like ten years later she was everywhere and they were doing every one of her books. Lois Duncan is the book author who wrote I Know What You Did Last Summer. And one of her other books was called Killing Mr. Griffin. And it's about a group of kids who kidnap their mean high school teacher and then, oops, something happens. We are off track already and we're like minutes in.

Sharon Johnson: Isn't that-- That never happens to us. Never.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, did we hear from everybody? What are two things you did, Sharon? We haven't even talked about our summers.

Sharon Johnson: Well, went to New York City for the first time in probably 20 years. Saw five shows while I was there. Amongst other things. I saw the Cottage, directed by Jason Alexander, starring Eric McCormick. I saw Shucked, for which Alex Newell won a Tony this year. I saw Sweeney Todd, which was not for me.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Have you ever seen it?

Sharon Johnson: No.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay.

Sharon Johnson: It has nothing to do with the-- It's more about the Dondheim of it all. I also saw Hamilton, of course. And I saw Good Night Oscar, which starred Sean Hayes. I now understand why he won a Tony this year for his performance in this show. ‘Cause it's fantastic. Before New York, I spent a week and a half with my mom, helping her with some stuff around the house. So that was really great. We really got a lot done during the ten days or so I was there. So those are my two things.

Susan Lambert Hatem: All right, well, I'll tell you one thing. I threw a fundraiser with Melissa, Roth for the TRR Foundation. We raised $5,000 to send to Choices for abortion access for women, travel funds for women to get there, because they're one spot, you know, serving seven states now. And it was a really fun party that we threw with a drag queen, Trixie of the Kinsey Six, and she was amazing. All right, enough of what we did this summer. Who did their homework assignment? Yay. Okay. For listeners, the 90s TV Babies had to watch the following episodes of It’s A Living from season one, episode one, and episode 13, the pilot. And You're Not Old. You're Fired from season three, episode two. We jumped. We just skipped season two for you. From season three, episode two. Cassie's Cowboy. Ann Jillian dates a cowboy and I, and, has to decide what she's going to do about that.

Sharon Johnson: For season five, it was episode two, called Her Back to the Future. And season six, episode one, Pistol Packin’ Mama.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, so those were the shows that they were assigned to watch to get a sense of It's A Living. We gave them a few more because we got some listener feedback saying that we didn't give them enough to really get a sense of the show.

Sharon Johnson: And it's only a half hour show, so time wise, it's probably comparable to what your other homework assignments were.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, well, now we're just gonna sit back, and I'm curious what you guys thought.

Sharon Johnson: Who wants to begin?

Sergio Perez: Well, I love a sitcom. I love a workplace sitcom. This is a workplace sitcom. I love just the heightened characters and the shenanigans that they get into. And specifically for It's A Living, it was not what I was expecting. Just because we've watched Remington Steele, Scarecrow and Mrs. King, Cagney & Lacey, and I was just like, oh, like, this came out-- It premiered in 1980.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.  

Sergio Perez: Premiered in 1980. I was like, okay, some of this might be a little dated. We're going to get some jokes that I just would not fly today. And it felt surprisingly well aged. Like, I was like, oh, this actually. This is actually, like, pretty salient. And, like, the stuff that they were talking about, the fact that all these women in the back room were just talking to each other, and barely any of it was about men. And if it was, it was to disparage the men who were in their, like, restaurant doing some dumb stuff, touching people where they shouldn't be. I was thoroughly surprised by it, and I really enjoyed the episodes that you had us watch, especially the one with Sheryl Lee Ralph and her singing. But we can talk about that later. That's just my first initial thought.

Megan Ruble: I would just like to point out that we all had a physical reaction to Sergio saying her name because of the obsession.

Serita Fontenesi: Dee Mitchell. She will always be Dee Mitchell to me. From Moesha. I audibly screamed when I saw her come on screen.

Sharon Johnson: So you didn't know she was going to be on the show until--

Serita Fontenesi: No, not until she appeared.

Sharon Johnson: Wow. Okay. Sometimes that's the best, isn't it? To have a nice surprise like that?

Serita Fontenesi: It was a treat. This was the first one that I was like, oh, I'm gonna go back and watch the other episodes in between. Like, I liked some of the other stuff that we watched, but I feel like I didn't have that. Like, oh, I definitely want to know what happens with these people. Whereas, like, again, it kind of had this, like, Golden Girls vibe of just, like, gal pals who kind of, like, roast each other but also have each other's back. And, you know, some of-- A couple of them do live together. Not all of them. Kind of going to that workplace comedy of it all. But I was like, they're fun. Like, this is fun. and the whole dynamic with their boss and back staff and also someone who was broke in her twenties and was a cater waiter, very much can relate to that restaurant vibe. And also, I think it's fun that this restaurant in Los Angeles only needs four wait staff. There are only four waitresses. They all are scheduled at the same time. They're all in each other's business and the rest of the, like, restaurants business as well. And that's fun.

Megan Ruble: I agree with both Sergio and Serita. I also went back and watched more Scarecrow and Mrs. King as well. Like, I really enjoyed that and watched more of that, but I will also be watching more of this. I didn't expect to enjoy it, though. I try not to look up a ton. I try to just sort of watch it and let the opinions wash over me. But just looking the intro and, like, just kind of looking at the poster, I was like, all right. Okay, here we go. I loved it. I did not expect any sitcom such nuanced conversations to be happening. and I really appreciated that because sitcoms necessarily have to have exaggerated stereotypes usually just for the form to work. But the fact that they could break those at times to have just women sitting and talking, I thought was really great. I really appreciated that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's awesome. Again, once again, you guys have surprised me. Sharon, did you think you would have this reaction?

Sharon Johnson: I did not. I'm at the point now where I have no expectations about the reaction of our 90s TV Babies to any of these shows. But nevertheless, I am surprised that there is this universal, let's call it love, for this show. That's great. That's fantastic.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay. All right. Now I have so many questions. Okay, so the first two seasons were on back to back. Then it went off the air for three years, and the last final seasons were actually syndicated. And so there's an actual break of years between season two, which you didn't see, and, season three. Which casts did you like and which cast members did you find the most exciting to you?

Sergio Perez: Okay, so I've been working with Susan, so I know, like, a good amount of stuff about this. Unlike Megan, you just went in without searching. I have been, like, deep in It’s A Living stuff for a second now. And watching the first episode, I was like, okay, I love Susan Sullivan, who played Lois, I believe. And I love, Wendy Schaal, who played Vicki. And I just thought, like, the dynamic between those two, like, one of them's more mature, one of them's, like, further along in her womanhood than Vicki is. Like, the conversations that they would have were very, pointed. And I believe, like, that cast just because it was a pilot, maybe that's, like, what they were going for really, really worked. And I know that for season two, they retooled the whole thing. And I don't know what they did. And I know we didn't watch anything from season two, but I'm curious about why and if you could provide any insight at all into what that was like, because we just avoided it completely.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Basically, from what I've been able to figure out, the general consensus seems to be that they thought the first season was too sexy.

Sergio Perez: Oh.

Susan Lambert Hatem: They definitely got feedback from one of their sponsors. They lost a sponsor after the pilot because of the outfits and because of the conversation about having sex.

Serita Fontenesi: But she's a virgin! The whole conversation-- She's a virgin who can't even drive. Right?

Megan Ruble: She's choosing not to. It's a conversation about the choice of abstinence.

Serita Fontenesi: Right. Sorry. Outburst of a Clueless reference. But that's so fascinating to me that it was too sexy when the whole plot centered around her choosing not to have sex and being okay if that means she loses a relationship. Like, that's like, you know, there's a lot of power in that. Absolutely. Of her making choices for herself and her body and what her, like, line in the sand is. But there's no sex, quite literally.

Susan Lambert Hatem: But the women are advising her to have sex. And literally, a sponsor was very upset by that. And this was a time when sponsors would literally pull out of a show. So definitely the costume change, from what I understand from Jane Espenson, was because they thought those outfits in the pilot were too sexy.

Serita Fontenesi: The off the shoulder.

Susan Lambert Hatem: The off the shoulder. The slinky dresses. And they were. They were a little, like, I go, are they nightclub singers or are they waitresses?

Serita Fontenesi: Well, there was the comment in the first episode where Ann Jillian comes in and, like, her, like, slinky dress, and one of the other girls is like, you walk to work in your, like, outfit. Like, isn't that a little scandalous? And it's like, oh, so it's okay to wear it in the restaurant, waiting on these tables, but not to walk from your car to the restaurant.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And very, like, very interesting. And then. And then the outfits they end up in, are very sort of like, matronly, a little bit like they're black and white and they have the puffy sleeves.

Serita Fontenesi: There was an overcorrection. Absolutely. And especially, like, as someone who very much pays attention to the wardrobe and the costumes and, like, what's the story that's being told here? The change in the wardrobe also felt like the show trying to be taken more seriously, which personally, I thought made the jokes even funnier because it's like, this is all so absurd and everyone's trying to be such grownups. But there was a visible, a visual, other than obviously the cast changing, but a visual aesthetic change in the show. And, I mean, this makes sense now. Also, I'm curious, do you know which sponsor it was that pulled out?

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'd have to go look it up. I don't know it off the top of my head. I'm just fascinated. Yeah. It's in one of my notes from my early research. So what happened with season two is that Susan Sullivan is gone, and again, she ends up on Falcon Crest the next year and stayed on Falcon Crest and was amazing. But they knew there were too many characters in season one. There's too many women in that room to navigate. And I felt that in the pilot> Rich didn't. He was like, it's fine. But the reason I didn't give you season two is it's a little bit off tone from the rest of the show. Susan Sullivan is gone, and they bring in Louise Lasser. And I don't know if you guys know Louise Lasser because she was big in the 70s. She was Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman.

Sharon Johnson: It was meant to be kind of an absurdist version of a soap opera.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Louise Lasser. She's very funny. It's amazing to watch her work. And Megan, I mean, like, you guys would all enjoy watching her. She's just in a different show, and it's hard to figure out. So I just. I just. I felt like it was too much to throw that at you. There wasn't an episode from that season that I was like, oh, but this is cool. This way. She did some early Woody Allen. She's very New York. She's very, like, just a unique comedian. She's amazing. She's just not a sitcom actress, and--

Sharon Johnson: Especially not in this one. Her character was a recent widow, and they were trying to figure out a way to make that funny. And I'm not saying it can't be done, but they weren't successful, in my opinion, in making it funny, at least, especially not for her character.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, it was a little bit of an overcorrection, right? Like, okay, so they were talking about sex, and they were having a thing. Now let's have somebody on to talk about their dead husband who just died.

Megan Ruble: Which, listen, I'm a gallows humor gal. I think there's really great ways to do it. but everything you're describing about this actress, just what you said, is not a sitcom.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And now I feel like I should have given you a Louise Lasser.

Sergio Perez: It's okay.

Megan Ruble: We can do it on our own. We can do credit on our own time.

Sergio Perez: Yeah, that one's for Patreon.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Let's cover the obvious. 90s TV Babies, is it feminist? Is it progressive?

Megan Ruble: I think it's feminist. I think you have women sitting, talking to each other, having nuanced conversations. I think there's an element to it that gets difficult, again, because it's a sitcom. And part of the structure of a sitcom is that you have people operating out of their biggest weaknesses. And also you have, like, stereotypes that have to be played into to a certain extent. But I think even with that happening, like I said earlier, like, I think it's really neat to watch them talk and interact, and, it brings up some women's issues that I was like, cool. That's a really neat thing to talk about in the pilot, them sitting down to talk about sex, and everyone in a sex-positive way. Having a different opinion is really cool. Them just having different political opinions, as we kind of see in the gun episode. That's really exciting, having a woman be, like, really excited about a guy and then finding out that he's a pushy, not nice person. and standing up for herself is a really incredible storyline. But then at the same time, and I probably shouldn't be the person who's commenting on that, and I acknowledge this, but, like, you have finally, like, a black female character on the show, and her stereotype seems to be that she's black and that's it. And it's a little like, oh, and then there's other things like that on the feminism spectrum too, where it's sort of like, we keep, we didn't watch a ton of episodes. But in our defense, we are all professionals within the entertainment industry, and I am certain that all three of us are very used to glancing at a script and needing to pick up tone and themes very, very quickly. And so when you see in almost every episode there being a sexual harassment thing that is addressed in from a range of this is not okay to, isn't this funny? Those were the moments where I was like, oh, this feels like a man wrote about a woman's issue without consulting a woman. And there's a couple moments like that where I was like, yeah, I get it. We live it. We get it. Can we talk about something else or can we talk about it in a more nuanced way? I don't need someone's butt getting pinched every episode for you to remind me that this is a show about women.

Serita Fontenesi: Like, cackling. Because the butt pinching specifically so much, it was just like, oh, wow. Again, I have worked in like the restaurant industry before as, ah, I'm sure we all in adjacent whatever, especially living in LA, like deeply aware of the sexual harassment present in service industry jobs, slash, in the workplace in general. But somehow it all got boiled down to there's one guy who's a regular at the restaurant who pinches butts and you just gotta suck it up until it happens to the boss and now it's a problem. And it was like, she just won't understand until she gets her butt pinched.

Sharon Johnson: You know, actually, that to me, that is very typical of workplaces in general. Unless and until it affects somebody higher up the food chain, something is not gonna be addressed, whether it's butt pinching or something else. But that's usually what it takes to get somebody to take action on something.

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Serita Fontenesi: I think that is fair. It was just like the fact that it's only a butt pinch and like each one of them has like this very big, and like, they're like, ah, archetype specific reaction to it, right? Like one's ready to fight. One is like, I don't know. Customer’s always right. It's not that big of a deal. Like, you know, the people pleaser, like, everyone had, like, a very-- Which-- That's where the formula of a show comes in. So, like, similar to Megan, I definitely think that it was, like, feminist. I mean, obviously, it was making men so upset, they were willing to take their money away, and advertisers are pulling out. If that's not feminism, I don't know what is. But-- And also, which, you know, I think I say this for every episode, right? Like, where are the black people? Like, I know we get Sheryl in later seasons, but she is one person. And, yeah, her character, kind of the most interesting thing about her is she is a black woman in this space. Right? Like, where are, like, I'm here for the girls, the gays, the theys. Like, I-- You know, like, if we were to do this show now, which this is also, I think, one of the few shows that I feel like, could very easily-- Of the stuff that we've watched, very easily get remade today. And in some ways, it has. And, like, other types of working-gal shows, whatever. But, like, you know, there's a very classic formula. Like, even I said Golden Girls earlier, and I think what I really wanted was Designing Women of, like, a group of women together in a workplace. There's giggles, there's some real stuff that goes down from time to time, right? Like, I live in Texas. I'm from, originally from Texas. Deeply aware of the gun conversation. And when we moved here, my husband was like, so we should get a gun, right? And I was like, absolutely not. Okay, Mr. California. Right. But, like, so, like, there were absolutely pieces that are still super palpable today. And even, like, the cowboy episode, like, he's like, an oil guy from Texas. I was like, I definitely know that man. Like, that is, that is an archetype that I'm deeply aware of. And honest, like, I was very curious to see where that episode was gonna go. Like, I-- And maybe this is, like, the trauma of modern TV. I was like, oh, no, she's gonna end up in an abusive relationship, and we're gonna have, like, a black eye scene that we're all gonna have to deal with and, like, process, and, like. And it's gonna be like, you know, the After School Special. And honestly, I'm glad that that's not where it went, because that, while is important storytelling is exhausting storytelling. And the fact that the story stopped with, like, he was really pushy, and she was like, enough is enough. And then we get jokes about. But the mink coats, like, you know, was very fun. And again, like, that's where I'm like, oh, I feel like this is a show that would translate into modern time pretty easily.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And do we have-- I mean, like, I'm, thinking of modern workplace comedies. I mean, obviously The Office, obviously Parks and Rec. But what's the one is there? I mean, The Bear, I guess, is workplace, not comedy.  

Serita Fontenesi: Sure. I was like, comedy?

Sharon Johnson: I like that. Yes, workplace, not comedy. Exactly. I don't think, though, that-- I can't think of any recent ones that are all women, though.

Serita Fontenesi: I definitely cannot think of one that's all women.

Megan Ruble: In fact, most of them I can think of, women are not even what I would call, like, primary characters. Well, yeah, b

Susan Lambert Hatem: But Abbott Elementary.

Megan Ruble: I think the argument for Always Sunny in Philadelphia being a workplace, which it kind of--

Serita Fontenesi: Abbott Elementary is a workplace, but it's still not. It's not all women. No.

Megan Ruble: But it has women driving it.

Sharon Johnson: Yes.

Serita Fontenesi: And Sheryl's back.

Sergio Perez: Sheryl Lee Ralph.

Serita Fontenesi: So that's the key to a good women-driven story.

Megan Ruble: Is Sheryl Lee Ralph.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah.

Serita Fontenesi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'll buy that.

Megan Ruble: The official 90s TV Baby statement about this. I wanted to jump in, really. This is kind of backtracking a little bit. But I did want to say, too, I also started the pilot and was like, whoa, too many characters. And then got, like, five minutes in and was like, nah, this works. I really like this. I like the, I like the diversity of it. I feel like everyone is getting a moment. I feel like I could watch it, character centric episode of any of these characters and be interested about what they have to say. And was actually kind of disappointed when we jumped ahead, not only because I liked some of these characters and they were now missing, but because I was like, oh, I liked how many there were and how many voices we were getting on different topics. Yeah. So I really liked the amount of characters. I also get, though, that that's a herculean effort writing wise.

Serita Fontenesi: But similarly, I was like, ooh, I love how many people like, you know, thinking about The Office or Parks and Rec.

Sharon Johnson: Right.

Serita Fontenesi: We have our core, you know, four folks, maybe, that we're following, but there's this whole universe of regulars that we experience, and that's where I think I was. I assumed where the show would go. And then obviously, you know, I watch one more episode and half the cast is gone. But, yeah, I, I, wow. I agree with Rich. What happened to women supporting women? You know, where I did, I wasn't overwhelmed by how many people were on screen.

Megan Ruble: I think what's cool about that is that-- Okay, my favorite character ended up being Nancy, which is how I know I'm old now, is that I was like, yeah, this lady is in charge. She is here for the friendship, but only until it interferes with work. And then we need to get back to work now. And I was like, oh, I'm old now. That's fine. That's fine.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's hard not to love Marian Mercer. She is pretty great.

Megan Ruble: So good. But also, like, if part of comedy formula, to quote one of my teachers, is you put the two characters together that will give each other the worst possible time. The more characters you have in play, the more combinations of that you have. And so in watching some of the later seasons where there were less characters, it was like there was one person that really didn't get along with Nancy. And then everyone else was on some sort of gradient of that, rather than this situation. Plus Nancy-- Plus whoever the other character was, created animosity between them. And so there's more like, there's more possible pairings for chaos and tension. But they still did it. Like, in later seasons, there was still nuance to all the different relationships.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Okay, now, and I'm just gonna caveat this by saying that we have interviewed Paul Kreppel, who played Sunny Mann in a previous episode.

Sharon Johnson: And we met him in person.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And we met him in person. And he's awesome. He's really quite delightful. But I'm very curious, since we mentioned butt pitching, let's talk about the character of Sonny Mann and what that read to you guys, as 90s TV Babies.

Serita Fontenesi: Again, maybe this is because I love Golden Girls and Designing Women, but I thought Sunny Mann was going to be our stereotypical gay friend in the group of women. Like, that was like, my first seeing him on screen. I was like, oh, okay. We found, like, you know, every Golden Girls only had it for the first season. He was the guy who cooked in the house. They had a male roommate, and he would always cook for them.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I think may have been just the pilot.

Serita Fontenesi: The pilot, yeah, yeah, you're right.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Which is crazy. And then he's gone. And then.

Megan Ruble: Yeah.

Serita Fontenesi: And then never to be seen again. But, you know, we had Anthony in Designing Women. Like, that's a very common schtick.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Also, not gay. And I thought he was gay.

Serita Fontenesi: I'm sorry. What?

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah. Not gay. I totally-- We've just started rewatching that. Not gay. I was like, he's gay.

Sharon Johnson: It never occurred to me that Anthony was gay.

Serita Fontenesi: Susan, you're lying to me right now.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I am not lying to you. Anthony gets married. Anthony gets married to Sheryl Lee Ralph.

Sergio Perez: Oh, my god.

Serita Fontenesi: I watched Designing Women every morning getting ready for school, because I have been 77 my whole life, and the way that I'm gonna have to, like, revisit, I'm blown away.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It's like the shazam. It's. It's like some.

Serita Fontenesi: Yes. This is the Mandela effect.

Susan Lambert Hatem: It is a history I was sure of, and there is nothing at all. He is not gay at all.

Serita Fontenesi: Wow. Maybe that's an indictment on me, you know? Maybe I need to look within.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I know. Me too.

Sharon Johnson: I do tend to be oblivious about some things that later seem obvious, but I never, ever got that vibe with Anthony. I have no idea why I did or didn't, but it, surprised me the first time you said that.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I'm so glad, Serita, that you and I-- At least I know--

Serita Fontenesi: I swear, like, Anthony. Like, he was like, I'm really gonna have to, like, go back and really take a look, because never once did I ever consider Anthony as straight, which, again, maybe that's more of an indictment of me than the writing, and I'm willing to sit with that truth. You know?

Sergio Perez: I think it's admirable to walk in and be like, yeah, everyone's just gay until--

Serita Fontenesi: Everyone's just gay until proven otherwise.

Sharon Johnson: And maybe. Maybe for me, it's the exact opposite. Everyone is-- At least certainly at that time, everyone is straight until proven otherwise or some indication of otherwise, which--

Serita Fontenesi: That's the other thing, is, I was like, oh, like, because of the time, the joke is that he's gay. Like, which, like, is not a joke. Like, it's just a fact. And I was like, oh, like. But it's fun that, like, he gets to be around with the Sugarbaker. No, it's bringing it to the show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, but listen, don't worry. Don't start watching Designing Women yet, because it's coming.

Megan Ruble: Okay, I'll wait. I'll wait.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I mean, I guess you can, actually.

Serita Fontenesi: I'll keep watching.  

Melissa Roth: I think it's a valid reading of the show.  

Serita Fontenesi: Thank you.  

Melissa Roth: No, no.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Melissa is jumping in.  

Melissa Roth: Anthony is gay.

Serita Fontenesi: Thank you.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Anthony is not—

Melissa Roth: Anthony is gay. He was not written as gay, but he's, like, the gay guy. Yeah. They don't think they-- Like, they didn't write him as gay, but no, Anthony plays gay.  

Serita Fontenesi: Okay. Melissa's on our side.  

Melissa Roth: Any reading of that show post-- And even like when I was watching it, like I didn't know he got married, I never watched it through the end.  

Serita Fontenesi: Which is what I thought Sonny was going to, I thought we were going to have another Anthony.

Susan Lambert Hatem: When they reboot the show after 80s TV Ladies makes it super successful on streaming—

Meghan Ruble: Yes.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's the only way you could do Sonny, I think.

Serita Fontenesi: Yes! Otherwise, Sonny's a creep!

Susan Lambert Hatem: That's how you do Sonny.

Sergio Perez: I think we all know s Sonny. That's my thing that I was thinking about. We all know a young, musically talented man who is a creep and a people pleaser. And I just think that that's a universal thing that we all share. I don't know if anyone has anything they want to sound off about.

Megan Ruble: This is such a niche joke, but he's such a musical theater tenor.

Sergio Perez: Yes,  

Megan Ruble: That's exactly what he is.

Serita Fontenesi: Yuck. Wow. Yuck.

Sergio Perez: He's the guy who in, like, his high school theater, got all the leads and played SpongeBob and everyone was like, oh my God, we love him. And they all thought he was really, really hot when in reality he could just hit the notes.

Serita Fontenesi: Okay, here's the thing.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I think we're going to learn a lot about musical theater right now. Go ahead.

Serita Fontenesi: Yes. Every theater department has the one straight dude who is like vaguely good at acting. As in he remembers the lines and occasionally emotes. He can, to Sergio's point, hit the notes on beat. Like the bar is in hell. But because he is the one of few in the space, if any in the space. Especially like when I was in high school, I was in a small town, like, you know. Ein college, which we all, we all knew what that feeder department was like. And I have a very specific person in my head of who Sonny is. And I will not say it, I'll tell you guys later. But the, problem is it's a big fish in a small pond situation. And so this person gets this idea of like, oh, I'm so good, I'm so talented, my ego is overinflated. And then they finally get into the real world and it is devastating, soul crushing. They're just not like thriving at all. And it goes one of two ways. Either they're like, you know what, let me learn a lesson. And like get over myself and like find a hobby and like become a real person, or they double down and they become a huge creep.

Megan Ruble: I want to add that, just. And not just because you said you had him on the show. I would have said this either way. kudos to him as an actor because that, like, role and that stereotype, even just his lines could have become so creepy so quickly, to the point where we would have watched it now and been uncomfortable. And instead we're all watching it now going, not, that's okay. But I know that guy. And the thing about that guy is that, which I think he captures so well, is that it's nothing usually coming from this place of intentional maliciousness. It's-- I say this with the utmost love. It's coming kind of from a place of stupidity. Like, he doesn't get that what he's doing is not okay.

Serita Fontenesi: He's a Ken.

Megan Ruble: Yeah, he's just a child. and, it's kind of, I think that's what stops it from being something that we watch now and go, oh, and instead we watch now and go, SpongeBob.

Serita Fontenesi: He's in his Mojo Dojo Casa House.

Megan Ruble: He's in his Mojo— He’s such a Ken. This Ken's job is music.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I think Paul will be very happy to be compared to Ken.

Megan Ruble: I also liked too, and we were given an episode that was very musical as well. But I liked that there was an element of music in each episode because of him too. That, there were a lot of jokes that came out of that, which was fun. And also, I don't know, I think, I'm a music lover and I am a musical theater person, so I like that little touch to it. It breaks up the comedy nicely as well. You have other jokes that can happen.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, I love the music in the show, and there's a lot of it. One of the challenges, apparently, they had when they were trying to get the show for streaming and stuff like that was clearing all the music. Paul Kreppel was saying that there's actually like seven episodes that didn't make it to streaming just because they couldn't clear the music. Because there's music in every episode and sometimes it's songs. What's surprising is it's not public domain songs. It's like song songs. And sometimes they're parodies, so you could probably get away with it, but a lot of times they're not. But I love they do other episodes that are big musical numbers because they have talent in that cast and it's really quite fun. Okay, so anybody else that sort of popped for you or any episodes that felt particularly-- I'd be curious to talk about the gun episode for a minute, but if there's another episode that you guys felt, oh, this was interesting to me.

Serita Fontenesi: I mean, I loved the cowboy episode. I was in my house, you know, screeching, cowboy, take me away. Like, yeah, again, I'm writing the modern version of—

Susan Lambert Hatem:  You're ready to go.  

Serita Fontenesi: This show. Yeah, I put me-- As soon as this strike is done, put me in, coach. But like I said earlier, part of that episode, I was very much-- I had primed myself for an After School Special moment of, like, and now we have to talk about DV and the glitz and the glamour that might, like, the love bombing that might distract. Like, I was fully prepared for, like, a heavy episode, and, again, was glad that that didn't happen. And still the point got across of, you know, she is in a controlling relationship, even if it's not, like, physical abuse or even, like, outright emotional abuse. Like, it is an unhealthy relationship. And, her being like, no, I told you, like, my friend needed me, and that's really important because, you know, one of the other girls needed to get to her daughter's play, and, and him just being a bad boyfriend, like, not caring about the things that she cares about. But it was done-- I loved how she's, like, having this very real moment in this relationship and having to, like, make a serious decision, and then one of the other girls is like, the whole time is like, it should have been me. It could have been me. He was sat in my section. Like, the show managed to, like, keep it still, really light. And in the universe of, there are four women who work at this restaurant, and they are all the servers all the time on the same shift, all the time. And again, as much as they are co-workers, they are friends, and they have each other's back, and that love that is still there.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I agree with you about the tone. I actually was very surprised looking back at this show, having not really remembered it. I remembered Ann Jillian, but I didn't remember this show that well. And I was really pleased watching it, again, how much it managed to be funny, real conversations with the women, and yet not feel too After School Special or preachy.

Sharon Johnson: It got its point across without feeling like, you know, this is your lesson of the week. This is-- Yeah, it felt like things that happened to and that were dealt with by real women as opposed to characters on a TV show.

Susan Lambert Hatem: I would like to see Susan Sullivan and Sheryl Lee Ralph in another workplace comedy. That would be great.

Sharon Johnson: Where they're, you know, they're in charge this time.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes. So I'm curious what you guys thought of the gun episode, and I'm curious what you would do, who you'd be, and who you, and what you would do in that kind of situation. So the gun episode is, Crystal Bernard is from Texas. She plays Amy, the character of Amy, who is from Texas. And then Sheryl Lee Ralph is playing Ginger, who is not from Texas. I don't remember where she's from. And they are roommates. And Ginger discovers that Crystal keeps a gun under her pillow. And, you know, conflict ensues.

Sharon Johnson: Your thoughts.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Your thoughts and any experience that you have or how you feel like you would handle that.

Sergio Perez: I thought it was really silly that at the very beginning, they panned to the table, and it's all of these people wearing bright red hats, because it just made me think, wow, we really haven't gone anywhere. Like, we are still here having the same conversation. The way that the episode ends, where it's just, like, there's never, like, a resolution to it. It's never like, I'm going to get rid of my gun. It's never, thank you for listening to me and doing the thing that I, that made me feel safe. It just ended, with a joke and, like, a little button. I was like, okay, so this tells me that we're still here, and it's still the same conversation. And we are getting into the same discussions with people where it just is never ending and it never has a resolution. And it's been coming up on my TikTok a lot lately, and I just-- I regret talking into a mic right now, right next to my phone about what this is, because for the next five days, I'm going to get just all this gun control stuff, and I don't want to-- I just don't want to see it.

Susan Lambert Hatem: So you, you feel like on your phone, you would be, you're going to be served up now?

Sergio Perez: Oh, 100%, yes.  

Sharon Johnson: Really? That's how TikTok works? It's listening to you and picking up on what you're saying and what you're talking about to someone? I don't know anything about TikTok, so--

Serita Fontenesi: But really, technology is so deeply insidious, and that is why, ultimately, most of these apps don't need to actually listen to what you're saying, because they're tracking so much more information. There's another great article about, great article is a strong word, but this teenage girl, she was like, 16 or 17. She was pregnant and got her pregnancy was outed to her parents via Target because Target had been tracking her, like, purchasing habits and then noticed that she was spending more time in the baby aisle in the store because the cameras are up. Right? You don't even have to have your phone on you for someone to be paying attention. And this is why also, not to make it so political, but, like, I guarantee you, there's nothing in the vaccine that has anything to do with tracking you because there are so many ways for, like, entities to already be tracking. They don't need to get involved in, like, biologics. Like, be serious. Yes.

Sharon Johnson: Too much work. What about, what about using a VPN? Does that help at all in terms of how VPN--

Serita Fontenesi: Actually, yes. So this is something that we recommend a lot for people who are looking up abortion services, who are looking for even, like, domestic violence, services. right. A VPN will help, like, add a layer, like a shield, basically, for our--

Susan Lambert Hatem: Listeners, for the special content we're going to, then what is a VPN?

Serita Fontenesi: I swear we'll get back to the show. It's like something that you can download to help, encrypt your Internet so that what you're researching, what you're sending, what you're receiving, gets protected. This is also why I tell people, don't text on your phone about anything you don't want on the front page of the newspaper. If it's just a regular, degular text, it is not-- I don't care what you do. It's not safe. WhatsApp, Signal. There are other entities that are end-to-end encryption. That's what you're looking for, where both what is sent and what is received gets protected. We really went--  

Susan Lambert Hatem: We really go in there. Okay. We're going to start another podcast.

Serita Fontenesi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, Patreon listeners, if you guys want to know more about technology and how to be safe online, call me, beat me, if you want to reach me.

Sharon Johnson: Send us—Listeners, send us your-- Join our Patreon and send us your technology questions, and we will have a segment called-- For Patreon only for, called ask Serita, and she will answer your technical questions.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And we'll send it on a VPN, virtual private network.

Sharon Johnson: There you go.

Serita Fontenesi: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I work in reproductive justice in a hostile state. These are the things that occupy my time.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Very important. Okay.

Sharon Johnson: Thank you.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Sergio, I hope that you do not get any gun TikToks based on this conversation. But if you do in TikTok, are you able to block? Does it, does it let you--

Sergio Perez: You're able to mark it as not interested.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yes.

Sergio Perez: That's all I know.

Serita Fontenesi: This is my other last tip. I promise. Anytime I encounter content that I am just really not trying to mess with, like, I do this a lot with any, like, diet ads. I report them as hate speech because it's not going to get taken down. Right? It's not actually hate speech, but it does tell the platform, like, I'm really not, like, if you show this to me again, I'm going to leave your app, and they want you to stay. So report it.

Interesting. All right.

Sharon Johnson: So did either Sergio or Megan have any thoughts about the gun episode that we haven't touched on yet? I know we went down a side road that took us places--  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Took us to Texas.  

Sharon Johnson: We weren't expecting to go, but was still very, very interesting and informative.

Megan Ruble: I might have the spiciest opinion on that episode, and it's still pretty mild, but my, my mild salsa on that episode is that, I was actually really excited for what we had seen in the other episodes. A nuanced conversation with multiple opinions being issued to actually happen around something like that. And I don't think that happened, and that was very, ah, disappointing. It would have been more interesting, and granted, I'm looking at this from a modern lens, and I understand that, but it would have been more interesting to me if-- I forget the Texas character.  

Susan Lambert Hatem: Amy.  

Megan Ruble: If she hadn't been the stereotype of the opinion that we expect. If she had-- Like, it would have been interesting to me if she had been a responsible gun owner, which-- If you have a loaded gun that is in--

Serita Fontenesi: In a stuffed animal!  

Megan Ruble: Just also, like, what are you-- Anyways, what is any of this accomplishing, ma’am?

Sergio Perez: The killer wouldn't find it if it's in the pillow in a stuffed animal. That's a Wendy Williams reference, by the way.

Serita Fontenesi: I got it, and I loved it.

Sergio Perez: Wendy Williams is always talking about the killer. We don't know who it is, but they're out there.

Megan Ruble: That killer mongering.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yeah, if you're wondering, statistically, it's your boyfriend. Go ahead.

Megan Ruble: If she had been a responsible gun owner and then we had been able to-- Or if there had been somebody else, or if she wasn't a responsible gunner, which she wasn't, and there had been somebody else who was. Or somebody else who was like, I don't care about this. Why should I care about this? Like, any other than just, like, this is good, this is bad, would have been more interesting to me. Where instead, the interesting conversation that was happening in the episode was about wallpaper. I was way more invested in this couple sorting out their wallpaper situation than I was in the gun situation. Although I will say I do appreciate, even though it was not really a resolution, I do appreciate that she, as a friend, was willing to be like, okay, I will compromise because I care about you as a friend. Again, it being written off as a joke at the end was kind of concerning. It felt like they started a conversation that they weren't ready to have.

Serita Fontenesi: It is also not lost on me, though, that it was like, the black woman having to advocate for any type of responsible gun ownership as someone who has been in that position and had to talk about, like I said earlier, when we moved to Texas, my husband was like, we should get a gun. And I was like, as a black woman, I'm not comfortable having a gun in my house, like, in this economy. Are you kidding me? And again, in the modern retelling, because I'm going to manifest this show to today. Right. That's a really big conversation for what does it mean for gun ownership of a black person versus a white person? What does it mean as women to be gun owners? What does it mean? Again, there are, like, polls will show you that Texans believe in, like, responsible gun laws and safe gun storage. And meanwhile, she's just recklessly under her pillow.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Well, it was also such a, that's where I think we're looking at a 1985 conversation. I'm not quite sure exactly what year that was, but it was a very less subtle conversation. I agree that it was sort of this she said, she said, and nobody else really seemed to go into that conversation.

Megan Ruble: Yeah, I would almost even argue like it wasn't a conversation. It almost became like, a joke setup. And it was like, oh, this is too important to just be a joke setup. The wallpaper can be a joke setup. I would also like to know where to get naked hockey player wallpaper, though. I was kind of down with that. That was a good compromise.

Sergio Perez: I want it too. There's someone out there that makes it. You can also make custom wallpaper. There are websites where you design it yourself, and it does a repeating pattern.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Come on, naked hockey players. Sergio, I'm in. I want to see that wallpaper. All right, final thoughts, and then we're going to have to wrap it up once again, this conversation has been fantastic and so much fun and all over the map, and I love it.

Sergio Perez: From Los Angeles to Texas and back again. The other thing I was going to say is that I feel like there aren't, like, very many shows that are set in Los Angeles. And whenever I do get one that's set in LA, I'm always like, oh, I know that. Like, literally in the pilot where they were like, yeah, well, I was down the PCH and I went on the 101. I'm like, the 101 is right there. At the Bonaventure, of course there was traffic on the 101. That's just something that really scratches an itch for me because everything's either set in New York or in nondescript town. So I love it when LA just comes up. My parents had their wedding reception, actually, at the Bonaventure in 1988. So I just, I have a deep connection with this show.

Sharon Johnson: I feel like you buried the lead, Sergio.

Serita Fontenesi: There's a great documentary called LA Plays Itself, and it's all, like, at the time that it had been made, like, film and TV references to LA being LA on the big screen.

Sharon Johnson: That sounds like something I need to find.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Thank you. What's great when you come in the parking garage of the Bonaventure and you're coming up into it, we discovered that they actually have walls showing with all the movie posters that have been shot at the Bonaventure. At first we thought it was like, oh, they must have a movie theater here. And they're showing these weird movies. Why is that? And then we realized, no, these are the movies that were shot here because they're very random.

Sharon Johnson: And not only that, we didn't go to all the elevators, but one of the elevators we went to, there was actually a plaque that indicated that scenes from a certain movie were shot at this location in these elevators. So they're very, very proud of this.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And I'm not saying we may have shot a little spoof parody video where myself and Melissa and Sharon are, maybe recreating the opening of It's a Living.

Sharon Johnson:, But keep an eye out on your social medias, Ladies and gentlemen.

Susan Lambert Hatem: And we tried to get Megan and Sergio to join us, but they couldn't. Because we wanted to fill it with all five of us. But Serita was in Texas, for God's sake.

Serita Fontenesi: I'm the Texan, you know.

Sharon Johnson: And we cannot thank you guys enough for watching the episodes and for joining us today and talking to us about. This has been great as always.

Susan Lambert Hatem: We'll have you back sooner rather than later. We got lots more shows to cover.

Sharon Johnson: Thanks, guys.

Megan Ruble: Thank you.

Sergio Perez: Thank you.

Serita Fontenesi: Bye, y'all.

Sharon Johnson: In today's Audio-ography, you can watch It’s a Living on Amazon, Tubi, or YouTube.

Susan Lambert Hatem: If you want to learn about real life safe gun storage, you can check out Be Smart for Kids and Moms Demand. We love hearing from you. Please send us messages at our website, 80stvladies.com. If you like our podcast, please rate and review us.

Sharon Johnson: Five-star ratings really help us a lot. Next time on 80s TV Ladies, we've got the authors of the upcoming Scarecrow and Misses King book, including David Johnson, another Martha Smith recommendation.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Hey, did any of you listeners play along? Did you watch the homework assignment that we gave to our 90s TV Babies in season two episode? If so, what did you think of It’s a Living?

Sharon Johnson: We'd love to hear what you think. We hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. All of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.

Susan Lambert Hatem: Yea!

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