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80s TV Ladies Theme Song 00:00
80s TV Ladies, so sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh#*ty. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Man on Bullhorn 00:17
Writers Guild of America, make some noise.

Crowd 00:23
(Cheering) What do we want? Fair pay! When do we want it? Now! What do we want? Fair pay! When do we want it? Now!

Melissa Roth 00:30
Yes, we are the 80s TV Ladies and we look for the union label. We are also part of the weirding way media network. And here are your hosts, Susan Lambert Hatem and Sharon Johnson.

Sharon Johnson 00:44
Hello, I'm Sharon.

Susan Lambert Hatem 00:45
And I'm Susan.

We have a kind of special union strong Episode today. Here at 80s TV Ladies, we are really not a breaking news or daily topical podcast. We're retro and we love looking back at 80s television and all the amazing ladies involved in it. Which means our most breaking story is typically 40 years old.

But we are looking at these shows from a modern feminist perspective, which means from here in 2023 in Los Angeles, currently in the middle of a writers strike that greatly affects movies, television, and possibly the very future of entertainment as we know it,

And most definitely will affect the future of the guilds and unions involved in Hollywood and beyond.

Full disclosure. I am personally affected by the strike through my husband and many of our friends who are members of the WGA. I am a member of the Dramatist Guild of America for playwrights composers and lyricists. And a member of the Producers Guild of America, which is not to be confused with the AMPTP.

The AMPTP is the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers. They are a trade association and the collective bargaining representative of over 350 American film and television production companies, including all the major motion picture studios.

Like Disney, Paramount, Universal, whatever Warner Brothers-HBO-Discovery-Max is now, the broadcast networks like ABC-- also Disney-- NBC, CBS and of course the now streaming platforms Apple, Netflix, Disney, Amazon, etc. The big guns, Sharon. Monopolies mega corporations. I just want to note that Apple has just become the first company with a $3 trillion market value ever.

Wow. Just looking back a little, the last writers strike in 2007 to 2008 lasted just a little over three months, but affected an entire year of production. The current writers strike began at 12:01am Pacific time on May 2, 2023. We're just now heading into month three of the strike.

Some of our listeners fans and friends have been asking us about the writer strike and the pending maybe-about-to-happen-shortly SAG-AFTRA strike. The actors' contract was up on July 1, just a few days ago, but both sides agreed to extend negotiations to July 12 In an effort to come to a deal.

Susan and I joined some strikes last week in solidarity with the writers. We went down to strike at Universal for podcast day, and now we're going to play you some audio from Susan On the Street from the strike she went to for Nine to Five Day.

Jane Fonda 03:40
What about those residuals for those of us working in the (unintelligible)

Crowd 03:43
Boo!

Jane Fonda 03:46
Those in the executive suites are getting bigger and bigger salaries than ever, but actors are getting less and less, just like the writers. They better watch out. If the actors go out with the writers, the industry will be shut down.

Chris Crowd 04:03
(Cheering)

Yes, I was on the line last week picketing Netflix and attending the themed event, Striking Nine to Five with special guests, and you heard her right there, Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin and screenwriter Patricia Resnick. So we have brought on a very special guest today to answer yours and our questions about the writer strike and what it means for the television industry. She is an amazing theater and television writer and a WGA strike, Captain Katherine DiSavino.

Katherine is a film and TV writer whose credits include Silo, Nancy Drew and Outpost. She has a Sundance episodic lab fellow, and on The Tracking Board's top 100 new writers in Hollywood.

She is also a bestselling playwright, and a wonderful and delightful person.

We are so excited to welcome Katherine DiSavino to 80s TV Ladies. Hi, Kate. How are you doing?

Katherine DiSavino 05:02
I'm good, how are you?

We're great. And we're really delighted that you're taking the time to talk with us today to talk about the writer's strike, and help our listeners understand what it means what it is, and what the stakes are for writers in Hollywood. And we really appreciate it.

Of course. It's my pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on to talk about it.

I'm so excited. But before we get to strike stuff, we would love to know about your journey of becoming a television writer.

Yeah, I, I started as a playwright. My mom and dad actually owned a professional dinner theater in Pennsylvania. And for 32 years, basically, my my whole my whole life, they, they ran it. They directed the plays, they acted in the plays. My mom, my mom wrote some of the plays. She did you know, costumes, and, you know, the set design and everything. And so I grew up, you know, with this, like Middle America audience. And when I started writing, I, I wrote what I knew, which was for this audience. So a lot of my early writing is big, broad comedy. And I got published by Samuel French right out of college. They're now Concord Theatrical. But they're, like one of the oldest publishing houses for theater in the world. And yeah. And so I wrote about four plays that have now all been done all over the world. A couple of them have been translated into different languages. And they're just like, you know, silly fun.

They're like fun family comedy--

Fun family fair. Yeah. Yeah.

Like Nana start a lingerie--

Yeah, yeah. Nana's Naughty Knickers is is the first one that I wrote when I was, when I was 20 years old. And I was in college and all of my, my classmates were writing art, you know, with a capital A. I was like, I'm gonna write about some grandmas and some lingerie, and a-rent controlled apartment. And I gotta tell you, that play gets, still gets done to this day. (Laughs) Yeah, and I just, you know, I really knew the audience and I knew people wanted to laugh. And those plays will never get done on Broadway. Those plays will never be, you know, in a, you know, a serious environment. But they they are enjoyed in community theaters all across the country. And it's, I'm so proud of it. I'm really thankful for, you know, that start to my career because the royalties for those plays ended up paying my bills when I decided to move to Los Angeles to pursue film and TV writing. And they still, they still pay bills today, which is very, very nice, especially in the midst of a work stoppage. It's, it's, it's good to have the theater in the background there. But when I started writing for film and TV, I wanted to do something different. And I felt like I had written for this audience and and that was so satisfying. But it was time to sort of see what what else my voice was. And so I pretty quickly realized that I really loved genre storytelling and horror, thrillers, sci-fi sort of in that in that vein. And my very first job in the industry was on as a writer's assistant on a little show called The InBetween, which was an NBC show. And it was it was great. It was like a psychic medium and she was helping the detectives and very spooky supernatural stuff alongside of a police procedural. And I learned so much in that room. I got to work with Susan's husband, Rich. And like it was just--

That's where you guys met.

--amazing. I, I feel like it was a master class in in what it means to work for television. And then in the midst of that, I actually got hired as a staff writer on a fantasy TV show called The Outpost, which was on the CW. And it was like a young adult, fantasy, sci-fi show and, and I just I loved it. I, that was my first job. So yeah. And then from there, I got hired on Nancy Drew and I worked on Nancy Drew for three seasons. I grew up reading the Nancy Drew books. I just, you know, detectives again, like but this was also genre, ghosts are real in this show.

The new Nancy Drew is is both supernatural and detective show.

Yes. it was like a perfect little combination of all the things that I love. And yeah, and we got to do a lot of really cool practical horror for that show and in a lot of in-camera effects. And I got to produce episodes on that on that show, which is-- We talk about the strike later later. That's something that's really important and something that a lot of writers are not getting the opportunity to do in the world of streaming. But Nancy Drew was on The CW, which is a network and it was a network production schedule. I got to go to set. I got to be there with the actors and the crew and like, really see how television gets made. And I was on that for three seasons. And then I got hired on Season two of Silo, which is Apple TV's latest sci-fi show. The finale just aired yesterday,

The finale of Season one, and then they announced that Season two is coming

Yes. Yes.

And that's all we know right now.

And that's all we know.

Right? Anyway, that is fantastic. What I also love is that you know a lot a lot of ladies-driven television you got going there.

A lot of ladies-driven television. A lot. The Nancy Drew writers room was a majority women. Two female show runners., and I think we had two two men on staff and the rest-- An 11 person staff-- two men and the rest for women. It was it was special.

That is really cool. You know, we love that around here at 80s TV Ladies

Yes!

For sure. Now you're a little young, but any any 80s television you remember?

Yeah, I mean, Jessica Fletcher!

Oh, Jessica Fletcher!

Yes, it's like the 80s TV Lady for me. I used to watch that with my parents very little and I think that it probably has a lot to do with (Laughing) why I love the TV shows that I write for. Like I'm called the Mystery Show professional on on Silo. That's what the room calls me. Like I love a good mystery show. And I've worked on several of them and it started with Jessica, man. Murder She Wrote.

I mean just just a like such a quiet juggernaut, like of actress and material. And you're like, that's like this steaming train. that won't be stopped. And amazing. I mean, she's amazing. And what was amazing. We just talked about it another Episode. Jessica Fletcher doesn't have a car. She solves all her crimes without a car. She's on foot. On a bicycle.

Yeah. She's a modern woman. I love her. I just--Yeah. And I, some of my favorite like early, early childhood memories, Sunday nights just like watching that with my parents. And man, it was good.

Murder She Wrote.

Murder She Wrote,

We will be covering it. We haven't covered that show yet, but we will cover it. That and Golden Girls well probably save because it's just, they're just so big. You can't do them first. We got school ourselves up.

Katherine-Susan-Sharon 13:21
(Cross talk, Laughter)

I can't wait to listen for those episodes.

Yes. Well, we will be talking in an upcoming Episode this Season with Eilish Zebrasky, who is a very renowned costumer. She was Aaron Spelling's head costumer for 80s, 90s and beyond. Costumer for Charmed. And Love Boat, but again, head of his whole studio. We have a great story about Eilish Zebrasky and Angela Lansbury.

Oh, that's so cool.

All right. So Catherine, you are a strike captain and coordinator for the Writers Guild. Can you tell us what that means?

Yes. So pre-strike world, anybody can volunteer to be a captain. And what a captain is essentially a conduit to the guild. So it's usually helpful if you're in a writers room, for example. You say, hey, I'll be the captain for this writers room. Everybody in the room is going to be my team member. And I'm gonna give you guys updates. If there are board elections, I'll remind you to vote. If there's any news that the guild wants to make sure that you're aware of, I'll deliver it in person in the room. If you, a member of my team have a question and you don't know who to talk to, I can I'll contact the guild for you and I'll put you in touch with the right person. That's in normal times. Right?

Does every writers room have a have a representative like that?

Yeah, we try. We try to make sure that that happens. Yeah. And, and so where it gets tricky is like feature writers. You know, like people that that work in more isolated spaces. And so like, if you have friends that are feature writers, I'll take you onto my team, you know. Like, let me let me also help you. And the guild really tries to make sure that, you know, everybody is is sort of nestled into some team of some sort. Some people are on many teams. It's, it does. It's, it's fine. It's great. So that's in like a normal normal time scenario.

And it's similar to other guilds, like the Equity and SAG. Like if you're on an Equity show, there's an Equity sort of representative from the cast that sort of if there's an Equity issue, kind of manages that with the production. Yeah

Yeah.

So that's interesting. But I didn't even know that because Rich's never talked about that.

And I think I kind of knew on some level that like Teamsters, or some of the crew have, like a captain, but I never thought about it in terms of writers and actors, etc. So that's really interesting.

Yeah. And it's helpful. It's good. It's a good thing. So I signed up to be a captain. In 2019. I was a co-captain of the Nancy Drew writers room.

Okay, I just want to sit with that for a minute. For all the ladies and girls out there, co-captain of the Nancy Drew writers room. That's a dream for somebody that they didn't even know they had, and then became a reality.

Shout out to Andrea Thornton Bolden, who was my other co-captain. We were a dream team. She's actually a strike captain at NBC right now. So we're still captaining together, although our teams are different now. But yeah. And so yeah, so I, you know, when we did the agency campaign, and all the writers fired our agents. And we wanted to make sure that packaging was no longer a thing and that our agent's interests were aligned with our own. Like, that was a huge messaging undertaking that captains took up to make sure that we were communicating with the membership. Why this is important and answering questions. It was a very stressful time, you know. We got through it together. And, and now here we are in strike times, right? So like leading up to our contract expiration, we had meetings at the guild. A lot more people signed on to be a captain. And, and really like pre strike-authorization vote, which is when the membership decides if we're going to give our negotiating committee the power to authorize a strike. Right? So the whole membership took a survey about, you know, experiences in your career. Like what, what have you experienced, um, being a writer? What has changed for you? What's harder? What? Residuals going down? Rooms being shortened? Like, what are the big concerns that you have? We polled the membership. The captains made sure that everybody filled out that survey. And then when it came time for the strike authorization vote-- Here's what we're asking for. Are you going to give our negotiating committee the power to authorize a strike? And we had a huge turnout for that. It was-- I mean, I think it was a 97% yes vote with-- I think like over 80% of our membership voted. 97.91 voted in favor of the strike authorization. Huge, huge. I think that's the highest turnout and the highest yes vote in the history of our guild. So on May 1, our contract expired, and the writers went on strike. And on May 2, every captain now became a strike captain. And what that means is now you are assigned to a studio. At that studio, sometimes you are assigned to a gate. For example, at Universal, we have six gates that need to be covered. So you show up the first day of the strike, and you're going to be taking care of everyone at gate one. You're, you know-- Susan, you're going to take care of everybody at the City Walk intersection gate. Sharon, you're going to take care of everybody at the Bob Hope gate, you know. That's your job. And then members are assigned to those gates as well. And the captains keep everybody at the gate safe and make sure that they have water and food and are hydrated and that cars are stopping while we're in the crosswalk and all of that fun stuff. And the lot coordinators are assigning the captains to the gate. They're assigning the picketers to the gate. They're coordinating with studio security. They're making sure that everybody that's there-- The coordinators are in charge of like everybody that's there at the lot. The cap-- The strike captains are in charge of their individual gates. So it's sort of a big effort to make sure that everyone is safe and healthy and picketing happily and safely. So that has become the evolution of the role of Captain over the last couple of months.

Wow, that's a lot of work

Indeed,

Yes.

But it's-- but from just, you know, my own observation, it seems like there have certainly been no dearth

of people picketing at various studios as you drive by. So has the numbers dwindled significantly? Are people still showing up to participate in the picketing?

Yeah, people are showing up to participate. I mean, I think it's summer is hard. People have kids. We're asking people to show up for three shifts a week and and we're seeing a lot of our membership be able to do that, which is great. And we've also had so much support from our sister unions and so much support from pre WGA. From people that are teachers. We had a whole bunch of teachers picket at Universal on Friday with us. We've had Teamster-- I mean, just like it-- The Teamsters have been phenomenal. SAG has shown up on the lines for us. IATSE, we've had DGA members out there on the line with us. Like it really has been historical, I think, that the the amount of support that we've gotten from our sister unions and people in the industry and people outside of it that have come to the lines. I'm I'm in from out of town. I've never done this before. Is it okay that I'm here? You know? Yes, of course! Grab a sign. Get some water. Go, go to gate 2. Thank you.

Here's a button.

Yes! Here's a button. (Laughs)

Little writer's strike one-oh-one. Why are the writers striking?

Yeah, I think the simplest way to put it is, these corporations profits have gone up exponentially from the work that writers have created. Right? Thanks to our work, they are making billions of dollars more than they've ever made before. And the budgets for the shows that we write have gone up exponentially. These big budget shows, special effects. Game of Thrones. Silo, the show that I work on huge, amazing budgets so that the art that we all enjoy on our TV looks good. It looks so good and amazing, right? But writer pay has gone down 24%. Since 2014, our pay has gone down. Everybody is winning, except for the writers who have created those pieces of art. And all we're asking for is 2% total of the net profit that they make only from the content that we create. So we're not asking for the computer money that Apple makes. We're asking for the TV money that Apple makes from the TV shows that we write for them. 2%. 2%. That's it.

That doesn't seem like very much.

No, it sure doesn't. It sure does not.

So what writers and what kind of shows are affected by the writer's strike?

Anybody that's in the WGA. Any show that is covered by the WGA minimum basic agreement, which is this agreement between the Writers Guild of America and the studios that pay for the shows. Right? The Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers. So those are the two, the two sides in this agreement. And the AMPTP consists of Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Hulu, NBC, CBS, Disney, HBO, like all of the all of the places, all of the platforms that you watch your television shows. All of the networks that make the TV shows. Like that's who we're negotiating with. That's who we work for. They're are bosses.

Under the agreement that just expired, was there any difference between what writers got paid, how they got paid on, say a show for CBS versus a show for Netflix? Or is it all basically the same thing?

There are there are differences. There are differences in-- It's kind of getting granular, but like a script that would air, an hour-long script that airs on NBC, a writer would get paid more than an hour-long script that airs on The CW. It's the same number of pages. It's the same it's the same everything except that there's a there's a tiered system in place. One of the things that we're fighting for is like the comedy-variety format, right? Like that's-- There is no minimum for those shows.

Really?

Yes, yes. So that's something that we're trying to get in this agreement. We feel like there should be a minimum for that. Those writers are, are writers. We think that their work should be covered by the minimum basic agreement. So that's one of the things that we're really fighting for is like making sure that writers in all of the formats, be it on network, streaming, be it in comedy-variety feature, hour long, half hour, that everybody is covered in the way that they should be for the work and the value that they're creating for these studios.

I've heard a lot of talk about mini rooms and streaming. And that being one of the points that you're negotiating for. Can you talk a little bit to that?

Yeah, I can. Mini rooms are basically where the studio says, everybody's gonna get paid the baseline minimum, right? We're just going to do this for for four weeks. And it's going to be people-- Usually in mini rooms it's people, higher-level writers So people who have been in the industry for like, 20 years. Because you want, you basically have to break an entire Season of television. Y ou have to figure out everything that's going to happen in four weeks. And also maybe either break or write the first two or three episodes of that in four weeks. It's, it's wild, right? Like that's a lot to do. It's the hardest, it's the heaviest lift of any writers room is figuring out the show.

Yeah. And using network television historically, as an example, in the past, that would not happen that they would start writing. And things could change, or they would work on things over time

Yes.

As opposed to starting the Season, knowing exactly necessarily where everything is going to go.

Mini rooms is very, very much a creation of the streaming world, right? Like this was not something that happened pre-Netflix. This is something that happened, I think, even in the last like five years. Like this is new. And it's a problem. And it was sort of presented as a carrot, right? Like, let's just use me, for example. I want to be a showrunner so badly, right? Like, I want to run my own show one day. And so say Netflix comes to me and they say, Katie, we think you can be a showrunner. But before we greenlight your show, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna let you hire four other writers, and you guys are going to figure out your whole Season of TV, and you have four weeks to do it. And we want three scripts. And based on that work we'll decide whether or not your TV show gets to be made. Okay? Well, I really want to be showrunner, like, Yeah, oh, okay. Here's the other thing. We're only going to pay everyone in the room the bare minimum, the minimum, the literally the least amount of money contractually that we are allowed to pay you. Because it's not a real room, it's a mini room. It's just for four weeks. So you're gonna do the hardest work that you'll do in making a TV show in four weeks for the base amount of money. And you're probably going to want to hire people who know what they're doing, who've done this before. So go ahead and hire some upper-level writers who will also work for the bare minimum for these weeks. And then if we decide to make the show in six months, seven months, when those writers have moved on to other shows, they're not going to see anything from the work that they did for those four weeks. But what we're trying to look for is if that's going to be the way that we adjust to making television, then we have to have some assurances around it. The writers that are part of the mini room need to have the ability to have credit for that, need to be assured that they should not be working for the minimum. Maybe mini rooms should not just be for four weeks. A lot of times you hear stories about you know the room ends, but you still have to turn those episodes in. And so because people care so much about the show, they want this thing to get made. They're then writing those scripts outside of the four weeks of the room. So they're not getting paid for the time to write the script. And yes, they get a script fee. But that is not that is not the same as the salary that you should be receiving when you're working on the script. When when you're still breaking the story outside of the room that's already ended because you want it to be good, and you're texting the other writers in the room and you're trying to figure out how to make this the best that it can be to turn it in because we care. We're artists. We we give a s*#t, you know? That like, this is our blood that goes into this. We want it to succeed. And they know that and it's being used against us in so many different ways. And it's time now for us to just have assurances that when we take those jobs, that those jobs are sustainable. And unfortunately, the studios have not really been willing to sort of engage with us on, on why this is not super fair. And, and don't seem willing at this moment to help figure out a way to make it better for everybody.

Because in addition to whatever they the writers get paid for, for writing that for in that four week mini room, or writing a script, or what they writers get compensated for being a creator or being other things when they're, you know, on a show that's actually been picked up. There's all sorts of other-- And those things are missing.

You get paid commensurate-- Exactly. You're paid commensurate to experience. Like, I should not be paid the same as someone who has been in the industry for 25 years. I am an upper-level writer now, but like, Richard Hatem has been in the industry for a very long time. Like he, his experience, he brings something to the table. Production experience, right? On-set experience. He's worked on many different-- Like that, that equates to a certain amount that's different than the experience that I'm bringing in. That's, that's okay. That's, that's how it works in a marketing company, right? Like, that's how it works everywhere else. So it's wild to say everyone is going to get paid the exact same, and it's literally, legally, contractually, the least amount of money that we can pay you is what we're going to pay you.

When streaming started, it was it was a baby industry. And it did the thing that that we should have known better, because we had just watched it happen to the music industry

Yeah.

Which was well, I mean, come on, nobody's there. And we're just we're inventing things. And there's, there's no way we could possibly be making money on this Spotify. You know, so so we are just baby companies in the woods with billions of dollars. And so we can't possibly pay as much as the networks, which had been around forever and know exactly their business model and how it works and all that kind of stuff. And everybody went well, we want to kind of be there and we want to break new ground. And so everybody went yeah, yeah, we'll give you a shot, you, you crazy internet kid. And and then Internet has become a juggernaut, and pricing has not compensated the workers the same.

No.

And you know, if I were a network, I'd be like, I'm making my own agreement with the Writers Guild, because it's the same agreement.

Yes.

And those streamers are getting a better deal than I have.

Oh, yeah.

Because the streamers got a different deal. Rich and I being, you know, part of the 2007, 2008 strike, it affected us quite a lot

Yes.

Just had a baby, just bought a house at the top of the market. It was great. It was good times to then go on strike. But it was for important stuff

Yeah.

But that contract, a lot has changed in 15 years. The world has turned upside down like five times in 15 years, three of them in the last year. So we now need people to be able to make a living doing these jobs for these companies that are making billions of dollars a year and trillions of dollars every year.

Congratulations, Apple. First $3 trillion company

Three trillion dollars.

Pay your writers.

Seem like they could pay some writers to make those fancy shows to put on Apple TV, but also pay residuals appropriate. And that that has come up. And I know you don't speak for the SAG-AFTRA, but we know that's coming up and that they have a lot of similar issues. I think theirs are a lot, very much weighted on residuals, very much on AI. Can you speak to any of that just not officially, but just what you know as a writer?

I mean, I the first thing I want to say is like a huge congratulations to them for their their amazing strike authorization vote as well. It's the- It's groundbreaking for them. It's huge. Almost 98% voted yes to authorize the negotiating committee to strike before they even went into negotiations. So I think that they see how important this moment is. They've extended their talks with the AMPTP. So now-- Their contract was set to expire on June 30th. Now it is set to expire on July 12th, which will give them time to continue to discuss with the AMPTP, and I wish them-- And I know the guild feels the same way. We hope that they get what they're asking for. But we also hope that if they don't, that the, you know, that the negotiating committee is is willing and ready to use the authority that their membership has given them to, to exercise that power and walk out and show the studios that they mean business. Because I do think that for actors and writers alike, that this is the moment to try to get these changes, to try to get what we know is fair and right. And I hope that they are able to use the moment well. Yeah. But I think, yeah, residuals, AI, huge issues for SAG, huge issues for us. But I do think that, you know, the WGA and SAG also have very different needs. And regardless of what happens with SAG, if they've join us on the line or not, they have been so supportive. And writers are enough to get it done, you know, to get what we need, because what we need is particular to writers. And what SAG needs is particular to actors. And so I hope that they're able to do what they need to do to get it

Basically being paid for the work that they're doing, and protected from artificial means of using their their images and their likeness and their creativity. And so that and being paid commensurate if there's going to be that.

Exactly.

So, and it's such an interesting-- It is a time for labor. Right? We've been hearing about Amazon and Starbucks and teachers and and the union efforts across the country for people to be paid their worth, and to be paid a living wage and to be not living a lesser standard than the people that came before them. And in fact, the idea is that you move it forward, right? Like that you move that line forward so that people have pensions, people have medical care, people have the things they need in order to survive and thrive

Yes.

As much as those fabulous companies are. Right? We should be having our $3 trillion a year--

Katherine-Susan-Sharon 37:32
(Laughing)

I love Apple, but I think everybody who works for Apple should benefit.

Yes.

From $3 trillion and the company should benefit, both their consumers and clients and the people that work for them. So that's what I say.

I agree.

Union strong! Alright, so one of the things that I noticed-- So, Sharon and I went out on Podcasting Day at Universal, which was super fun.

It really was.

And if you are in LA and you feel like supporting the writers strike, if you're in any creative field, or you're a teacher on summer vacation, I do recommend going down and feel the solidarity of that movement. What I have noticed in the difference between the 2007-2008 strike 15 years ago and 15 years later, is how much more diversity on the line, not just in the the unions that are supportive, but in the voices that have been in the writers rooms.

Yeah,

There is more Native Americans, LGBTQ, black writers, Asian writers, writers of color, disabled writers. And that has been pretty amazing just to watch happen and recognize how much advancement has been made in the last 15 years. And yet, the more that that advanced, the less the powers that be want to pay people to be there.

Yeah. I think we still I think the diversity is amazing. I think we have a long way to go. And I think that, you know, we've seen a lot of the most diverse shows on television get cancelled way before their time. I mean, removed from streaming platforms entirely. We went from having the most diverse television series-- Latinx TV shows-- I think two years ago, to like 1% of television shows now are like, Latin representative. Like it's it's just, it's unconscionable. And I think that like yes, the writers are there. Like we have-- And not just inside of our guild like waiting at the doors to get into our guild. We have incredible diverse storytellers that are ready to be a part of this and to tell their stories and I think that the streamers have started firing a lot of the diversity heads that they hired in 2020. And I think that there is a reckoning of its own to come from from that. It's so heartening to hear you say, Susan, that it is more diverse than the 2007 and 2008 strike. I think that-- I think that we can only improve from here. And I think that, you know, one of the things that we're trying to ensure is like a clear pathway to grow and to, and to nurture those careers and to make sure that they are careers and that they aren't just just gigs for people.You see a huge drop off in the diversity in rooms when it comes from like the lower level writing tier, which would be like around executive story editor, co-producer level, to producer, supervising producer, co-executive producer. There's a huge drop off. And a huge part of that is that studios make writers repeat levels. And oftentimes, it's diverse writers that are forced to repeat staff writer level three, four times. Writers are not able to go to set because of the way that the streaming model is set up in streaming. In network television, you are, you are on a train, and you are also building the railroad tracks at the same time. You are in the writers room you are writing, you have about a month head start and then production starts. So now you have to make sure that scripts are ready because there is a crew, there are cast. You're shooting the episodes. The train is moving, man, and you got to keep going. And so to keep that train moving, writers go to set to be there to answer questions, to handle prep, to deal with tone, to help directors. And it's essential. It is a huge part of writing. And it is what trains you to become a showrunner. Now in the streaming model, series of television are written a year-- And then there's six months, eight months, 12 months, 14 months until production starts. So at that point, your writers room that wrote 10 episodes of television have had to go on and find another job, because you only worked maybe for 13 weeks, right, on this job to write those 10 episodes of television. Which is insane, by the way. 10 episodes of TV in 13 weeks is insane. That doesn't pay your bills for the year. You have to get another gig. You're not even available to do that. And then the showrunner is, is basically rewriting and producing and doing all this stuff themselves, or maybe if they're lucky with their number two. And so the pipeline of writers learning how to produce a show is completely cut off. And it is an essential part of of writing. Producing is writing. Being on set, realizing that the staging is wrong for this scene, or that the actors have found something different in this relationship, and you need to make an adjustment on the fly. That is a writer's job. Or to know, no, this can't change because this is a very important two episodes from now or next Season. That is also the writer's job. Same thing in post, in editing. We can't cut that. We need that. The music, it isn't telling the story the way that we need it to. In the room, this is how we talked about it. We need this to be a huge scare moment. Whatever it is, that's all writing. That is all writing.Those are artists working together. And so if you want to see more diverse people running their own shows, you need to make sure that there is a pipeline that that allows them to get the hands-on experience that they need. And it's not just diverse writers, it's everybody. It's all writers. We're all getting cut off from this essential pipeline. And it does nothing but hurt the studios in the long run. You're gonna have a generation of showrunners who who don't have the experience that will make your jobs easier. And, and it scares me a little bit because maybe they know that and maybe they don't care. And the writers create this. The writers are the reason we are all here. They have to be there through it all.

Yeah. There are two things that you said that I think are really important. First, you were mentioning about titles for writers in a television show.

Yes.

And that it's built into it's in the contract about how that works. And that having to to stay at a certain level for a certain amount of time, effects income long term. Because if you have to repeat a level, you're not getting, you're not getting a bump in your salary. So that's that much longer before that actually happens. And that hurts the writers too. And that's something that outside of the the mostly the network television model has, has really just kind of, I don't want to say gone away, but it's changed a lot of things for a lot of people. And then also the idea that writing is not just sitting in front of your computer, in front of a tablet, writing down words. It's, it's all sorts of other things related to the production that bring that television show-- because we're really talking about television with this-- to life and brings it to the screen. And those parts are as important as sitting in front of that computer, sitting in front of that, that empty page

Yes.

And putting something there. And there, there really seems to be a dimunition in terms of maybe how the the networks, the studios, whatever feel about that. I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling it has to do with the fact that, partially has to do with the fact that people making these decisions about doing these are tend to be people who are not on the creative side. They're looking at a budget saying where can we cut money? Without thinking about what that means for the end product.

All right. This is amazing. We're gonna take a quick break, and then we're gonna come back and solve this problem. But I also I do want to talk about what I learned from Jane Fonda when I went on the Striking Nine to Five picket line. We'll be right back. Oh, my God. All right. We're back. We need to solve everything. But back to having experienced being with Richard Hatem while he's having a career in television, you are able to both work on amazing shows, create your own shows, and do both and build a career around creating television and earn a pension and earn medical benefits and other benefits and raise a family. And because of the protections that the Writers Guild has gained over the last 40 years, and that is what it's it is at risk in looking at what the guild needs are and writers needs are and what is being offered. And in some ways being taken away. Mini rooms are not a sustainable model.

No.

They just aren't.

And Susan, just to jump in, it's not it, like the mini rooms are like the tip of the iceberg. Right? Because those are four weeks, six weeks, whatever. But the rooms themselves, the actual rooms for the shows have also gotten shorter and shorter weeks. You're working literally to break 10 episodes of television. You're working for 13, 18, maybe 20 weeks, if you're lucky. It's not enough time. It's just it's not enough time. And so one of the things that we're asking for is let's standardize. Just give us the time that we need, so that we can get paid to do the work that we're already doing for you.

And when you also think about what used to be 23 Episode seasons

Yeah.

And now are ten, eight, six, is considered a Season. And that's a joke. And you know what, and listeners, you shouldn't accept it as watchers. We shouldn't be like, you're gonna take my favorite shows-- We all know that feeling of like falling in love with characters in a show and a thing and you get six episodes. And then you wait, I don't know, 18 months to get Season two. Another, like four, maybe six or maybe eight. And then and then they they pull the show. And you're like, but I invested. And the shows that we love, you know, and we can watch again, those shows won't exis. The shows like the shows we can look at from the 80s and go, holy crap! Cagney & Lacey holds up, man. That show is worth watching now. And if you're not investing in writers and creators, actors, if you're not investing in them now, 40 years from now there won't be anything to dream about. There won't be anything worth watching. There won't be anything, you know. And none of us will have jobs or medical insurance. So that'll be bad too. But what happens for the writers effects everybody beyond that, right.

Yeah,.

You used to be able to make a living as a crew member in television.

Yeah, it trickles down. Yeah.

And if you were only doing six episodes, you're not gonna be able to make a living doing that.

No. And you also just, you lose amazing crew members. You lose amazing artists in their own right. Grips, the electricians. You lose your your costume designer. You lose your production designer because they can't stick around to see if there's going to be a second Season that they, like they have to take the next job. It's just, it is turning everything into a gig economy. It's this hurry up and slap it together and make it and we don't, we don't care. Move on to the next thing, you know, like it's--

Your GrubHub driver. What I did learn on the line, because I went down to the Striking Nine to Five picket line. Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin and screenwriter Patricia Resnick showed up to speak and the mayor of Burbank, who loves honking. And, listen, when Jane Fonda is saying, streaming residuals are so terrible, she knows. I'm like, oh, Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin have a show, a hugely successful show that ran for several seasons. Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin. And their residuals are not good.

Yeah. What does that tell you about what everyone else is getting or not getting?

You know, Julie patootie, like, you know, it's not-- And all the actors like, I really want the actors to get a good gig, because I know a lot of actors. And again, you used to be able to be a working actor. You didn't have to be a superstar. You didn't have to be Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin to make a living in the industry as an actor. And now you do. If you want to make a living as an actor, you have to be a superstar. Or that's it, maybe maybe do commercials. But even that has changed.

Even commercials have been have, like, the regulations have changed, and some are covered and some aren't. And like it's, I mean, it's the story of corporate greed in America, right? Like it's gutted the middle class. And it's not just the entertainment industry that feels this. Like everybody who works understands what it's like to see corporations get richer and richer and richer and richer. And to see the cost of living go up. And to see your paychecks stay the same or go down when it when you take into account inflation. And it's ever it's affecting writers, actors, Teamsters, teachers, people that work in marketing, Uber driver. Like everyone is impacted by this. And not everyone has a union that they can stand up with and say, no, no. We would like to be paid for our work now. Thank you. And we're not we're going to withhold the work that makes you money in order to get what it is that we're asking for. I feel so lucky that I am a member of a union. And I think that, you know, one of the things that the AMPTP is afraid of, and then an Apple executive actually went, not on the record, but anonymously spoke to one of the trades about this. And they said, you know, one of the things that we're concerned with with the writers strike is that other people-- We're an international business.We're concerned that other people are going to get the wrong idea here and think that this is a this is a good thing to do, you know, strike striking for what you're worth, My God, how terrible would that be with people what they deserve? And that, you know, you said the quiet part out loud, my man. Like, I feel very lucky to be a part of the Writers Guild, to have a union that is, is this strong and this dedicated to be able to stand up and say, This is not fair. And we're asking for something that is quite fair. And you're being unreasonable. And we are striking because you refuse to come back to the negotiating table and be serious.

Yeah. And so we will have in our description a link to what the Writers Guild is asking for and what the response was from the AMPTP because it's quite illuminating how little they are interested in negotiating.

It is very illuminating. I really hope that your listeners take a look at it because the majority of the responses to our proposals were no. And there's no counter. It's not a negotiation. It was just No, nope, no! It's just like that's not that's not how a negotiation works. You know, they're like, it's meant to be a conversation and like in good faith and, and you can see why the writers did not have any other choice but to walk away. They were not being serious people.

And why the actors in particular also feel like they may not have a choice. And so just to talk a little bit about what I've been reading in the news this week, is that, yes, they push negotiations. Everybody's kind of excited about that, because in theory, it means they're close enough to an agreement that everybody feels like it's worth it to keep talking. But when it felt like maybe they were close to an agreement, there was a letter that many actors in the industry, particularly very large actors, very well known actors, wrote and signed, saying, don't make a deal if it's not the deal we need. And that's huge, particularly coming off the vote that was so huge, and particularly knowing that the SAG-AFTRA is 160,000 people. There's 11,000 writers?

11,000. Yeah.

And if actors go out-- I mean, the industry is half shut down now. If actors go out, it's all shut down. But that's the point of a strike.

It's the only leverage.

The only leverage you have is to make it difficult. It is going to affect the bottom line. There will not be enough programming for next year. Shows will not be able to have their next Season ready to go. And it will affect people streaming, and people will stop paying for that streaming. And so it is a very exciting time in some ways for labor because it is it is unusual for all the contracts to come up at the same time.

That actually, it's by design. It usually does happen that way, but it is unusual for these strike authorization votes to be so huge. It's been 15 years since the Writers Guild went on strike. DGA usually settles like makes their deal with AMPTP way ahead of schedule. So it was unusual for them to be doing it in the order that their contract is up. It was unusual for them to sort of come pretty close to the wire for their deal. So yeah, this is a very unusual year. And, Susan, I will say like, I agree like if the writers being on strike, the productions that we've been able to shut down with the help of the Teamsters, it does hurt a lot of people. And it is not, it's it's not a good feeling. You know, like it's not-- We're doing what we have to do. It's part of our negotiation. It's it's part of the messaging that like you cannot make television without writers. You need us. But it does impact a lot of people. And it is not something that we feel good about. And there's actually one of the links that I sent you guys is a link to the Entertainment Community Fund, which is an organization that is set up that you can donate to if you if you would like to. But it's also if you are someone who has been impacted by the work stoppage in any area of the industry. You don't have to be a writer or an actor. You could be a crew member. You could be an assistant, a writer's assistant on a show, a script supervisor. It's for people in the industry that have been impacted by the work stoppage. One would hope that the studios who are the reason that we are striking, would see all of this hurt that they are causing, and realize that at this point in the strike, they have lost more money than it would cost to fund our proposals for the three years that we're asking. You would think that they would say, oh, it's probably a good time to go back to the table. People are hurting. But they have not. And so artists have stepped up to to create these funds to try to give people a safety net in these difficult times, because we take care of our own. And that's and that's what we're doing.

And it's very important, and particularly for just-starting-out writers and even pre-WGA is super affected by this because they're in those programs. They're working as assistants or within the industry, and they're severely affected and don't always have the same cushion that you hope to. I mean, I think we were very aware going into this strike that it might happen.

Yeah.

And tried to act accordingly. But it's you can't be prepared for months of not working.

No, and not in an economy and like in an industry where they've created the gig economy. Like there is no there is no real way to prepare for something like this when you are literally living gig to gig and paycheck to paycheck, which is why what the majority of crew members are dealing with, the majority of writers are dealing with. Like 50% of, of our guild is working at minimum now. You know, it used to be 30%. I think 10 years ago, it was 30%. And now it's 50% of our membership is working for minimum.

Susan Lambert Hatem 1:00:18
And that's not sustainable. It is not sustainable. And none of these mega corporations should get away with any of this crap. Because it's not sustainable for the United States. No, it's you know, and we see it across all labor. So, union strong.

Sharon Johnson 1:00:34
Indeed.

All right, well, we are going to have to wrap up. We have some how you can help and we'll add those to our audioagraphy. Any other ways people can help support the guild?

Katherine DiSavino 1:00:43
Yeah, I mean, I think amplifying any messages that you see from the Writers Guild, come down to a picket line, if you're in Los Angeles. We would love to have you. You do not have to be a member of The Guild. We're, we're at all of the major studios Monday through Friday, 9am to 2pm. We adjusted our hours because of the hot hot summer that's coming. And also because we have shut down, I think all production in Los Angeles has been shut down now at this point. All guild covered production. If you want to buy the writers of pizza, there's this amazing person, Jess Morse who has been organizing pizza dropoffs to every picketing location for all 60 days of the strike. And she had it's all community funded and she brings-- It's like, the highlight of the day when one either Jess or one of her pizza fairies comes and has steaming hot pizzas from Costco for our picketers. So if you want to donate 10 bucks and buy the writers a pizza, she puts your name on a on a name tag and drops it off at one of the lots. And you make a whole bunch of people very happy. And join us.

Well, and where can people find you, Katherine?

Oh, oh, they can find me online. Twitter and Instagram I'm at K-Vera, V-E-R-A-DiSavino, D-I-S-A-V-I-N-O. It's very long last name. And I'm at Universal Studios most days on the Lankershim side check-in table if you want to come on by and say hi. Come on down. I'll be there. We have amazing captains, amazing lot coordinators over there. And I feel very lucky to be to be a part of this movement right now.

That is fantastic. And I do want to shout out Writers Guild East as well, because there is striking in New York. Also in Atlanta. there's been all over-- If you have got production in your town, there's there's probably Writers Guild folks marching there. Can people find out where they can go strike?

Yeah, one of the links I sent you is to the 2023 contract. And there's a tab called Strike locations, I think, that you can click on, and it'll tell you East and West Coast where we're striking. If you think that there's a production that's filming in your town, that might be like a location shoot, something that might be covered by the the WGA, you can always email tips@wga.org. And just let us know. And we can check it out and see if that's something that we should be picketing.

Thank you so much for coming on. This has been delightful. I want to have a whole other conversation about you're growing up in a dinner theater.

Oh my gosh.

Because you know, I'm a theater, I'm a theater-crazy gal. And and I grew up on regional and community theater. And I think that's just amazing.

The best. Yeah. I also want to say like a huge huge shout out to to our Teamsters, who have been so incredibly supportive. And like, we have a Teamster driver that's with us every day on the line. And like I just, I think that I speak for our entire guild when we say thank you for the solidarity that you've shown over the course of this strike. And like, we really could not, we would not be where we are right now in the strike without without your support. And, you know, it has taught me a lot about what it means to have solidarity with other unions, and I'm very thankful for them.

Well, I'm hoping we're all learning how to be revolutionaries now. And revolutionaries means being in solidarity with striking workers. Saying, we deserve a living wage. We deserve to be able to create careers and art, create careers and to be doctors and teachers. And Teamsters and UPS drivers with air conditioning in our car in the middle of the hottest summer ever on record.

My god, yes!

It blew my mind when I heard that, It just never occurred to me--

That there wouldn't be air conditioning?

Yes!

Can you believe that? It's-- It's unconscionable.

It's unconscionable. And we don't don't have to live this way. We don't have to live this way.

Yeah.

A strike is an indication of how, you know-- There has been I mean-- Efforts have always been made to try to work things out. And the strike just means that for whatever reason, there isn't an appetite, it seems in this case that for the the AMPTP to even talk about, even discuss, even look for ways to find a way to make it work. You can't do it by yourself. You need them to do you know, to participate. So--

And we're ready, we're right outside, right outside whenever they're ready to chat. We're right outside their gates.

I wish somebody would break ranks and raise their hand.

Maybe in 10 years, maybe in 10 years when we've won this fight, we'll know what was really going on behind the scenes.

But it's worth the fight. It really is, so-- All right. Thank you. This was delightful and we'll have you on again.

Amazing. It was so lovely to talk with you guys. Thank you so much. Have a beautiful day. Bye.

Today's Audioagraphy contains a number of links where you can get more information about the writers strike and find out how you can help. First, wga.org where you can find more about the writers strike and the Writers Guild. They also have a strike fund assistance for guild members. There will also be links to the strike website and the proposal that led to the strike at WGAContract2023.org.

For those affected by the work stoppage in all areas of the industry, or if you want to donate to help, go to EntertainmentCommunity.org. And in our description, you will find links to SAG-AFTRA and how to donate money to send some pizza to writers on the line.

Writers love pizza.

Who doesn't love pizza? Be sure to check out our next Episode where we return to our regularly -scheduled programming. We will be diving into an 80s television show based on an 80s movie inspired by a 70s and 80s labor movement called, yes, Nine to Five. There was a TV show. Did you know? Which starred Rita Moreno and a whole slew of amazing actresses and was produced by the legendary Jane Fonda. The advertising you hear on this show covers just a tiny little part of the cost of producing the show. The best way to support us and to not hear ads is on patreon.com/80sTVLadies. If you have not already checked out Weirding Way Media's The Kulture Kast podcast, we are doing a crossover Episode. Yes, about Nine to Five. You can find a link to the Episode in our description.

As always, we hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch all of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.

Jane Fonda 1:08:00
And we will stand together and hold firm until we all get justice, fairness and respect.

Crowd 1:08:10
(Cheering)

Jane Fonda 1:08:10
Thank you very much. Stay strong and brave.

Crowd 1:08:13
(Cheering)

Pay the writers!

Pay the writers!
‍

Episode 204: “Gay 90s (and 80s): The Rainbow Remix with Denise Warner & JD Danner

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