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80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh#*ty. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Melissa Roth 00:17
Hello and welcome to 80s TV Ladies where we explore the fabulous female television shows of the 1980s, with your hosts, Susan Lambert Hatem and Sharon Johnson.

Sharon Johnson 00:29
Hello, everyone. I'm Sharon.

Susan Lambert Hatem 00:31
And I'm Susan. And that was Melissa, our producer introducing us because we like to mix it up a bit.

Recently, we've been talking about Cagney & Lacey, a police procedural drama starring two women detectives who are solving crimes as they manage their personal lives. It aired on CBS from 1982 to 1988.

This show is arguably the most female driven show we've covered so far. Two women leads, working together and being really well-drawn individuals in a male dominated field. The women are leading the story and being the heroes and I really liked that the show dealt with the issues of the day-- racism, abortion, sexual assault. It did not shy away from those and it did it in really smart and surprisingly subtle ways.

In addition to the series, there are several Cagney & Lacey TV movies-- the original television movie that would spawn the show, which aired in 1981, which we talked about a few episodes back. And then CBS aired four TV movies between 1994 and 1996, picking up the characters and the actresses several years later,

Cagney & Lacey started Tyne Daly as Mary Beth Lacey and Sharon Gless playing Christine Cagney. The other stars included Al Waxman, John Karlen, Carl Lumbley, Sidney Clute, and Martin Kove, who you may recognize as John Kreese from the Karate Kid series, all the way through the new television sequel series, Cobra Kai.

In our previous episodes on this show, we spoke with the trifecta-- creator and producer Barney Rosensweig, then both leading ladies, Tyne Daly and Sharon Gless sat down and talked with us,

Check out those episodes if you haven't already. It's just some of our favorite interviews with some of our favorite people.

But today, we're speaking with another wonderful special guest, Karen Arthur. In 1985, she was the very first woman to win an Emmy for Outstanding Directing in a Drama Series for an episode of Cagney & Lacey entitled Heat.

Karen was born in Omaha, Nebraska. She started as a dancer and actress in the 60s and 70s. She was an actress in TV shows like The Monkeys, Get Smart and the Streets of San Francisco.

Karen became a director in the 1970s. In addition to Cagney, & Lacey, she directed episodes of Hart to Hart, Remington Steele (one of the earlier shows we covered in our podcast, if you'll recall), Seventh Heaven and other popular series. She also directed many movies.

Some of her most famous TV movies and ones I actually remember watching include The Rape of Richard Beck, Victims for Victims: The Teresa Saldana Story, The Jacksons and American Dream mini series and The Staircase, which starred Barbara Hershey, William Petersen and Diane Ladd.

Karen, welcome to the show. We are so grateful to have you join us on our podcast. So let's start at the beginning. How did you get started in this crazy business?

Karen Arthur 03:31
Well, you know, it changes. If you live as long as I have lived, I'm 81 now, which has given me an opportunity for a lot of careers. And each career feeds in to the next career, if you know what I mean. I started out as a ballet dancer back in the 50s. And then I became a choreographer, very young. I had actually choreographed a piece in, let me see, 195-- I'm looking at a cheat sheet. Five, and at a beautiful playhouse in Palm Beach, Florida, the Royal Poinciana Playhouse. And it had a lot of well-heeled people. And this woman came up to me afterwards and she said I am Mrs. Louis B. Mayer. I said, Oh. (I had no idea who Louis B. Mayer was.) Oh, that's great. And she said, we don't have as many fine choreographers and directors. As your work here tonight shows me, you need to come to Hollywood. And you need to talk to me, and I will put you in the movies. I said great.

Wow.

Ten years later, I finally make my way to Hollywood. I had no intention. In those days, I was gonna be a ballerina, you know? So it's funny how things kind of- Eh. Who knew? But I started out as a ballet dancer and then a choreographer. And I just followed that path the rest of my life. A musical comedy performer, then a musical comedy director; a dramatic actress, then a dramatic director. Then I go to Hollywood in 66, and I'm acting and all of these crazy shows on TV and whatnot, films and so forth. And then I get bored waiting for the phone to ring. And so I say, Well, why why don't I just direct? And so-- Anyway. But it's always been one thing following another, which I think a lot of people's careers are. And you drag from each of those careers, or each of those chapters into whatever your current-- So you're constantly feeding from your past into your future.

I love that. I think that's amazing. And I have had a lot of weird, crazy career stuff, too. I did not think two years ago I'd be doing a podcast right now, but we're having a blast. And but I am very curious about the transition to director.

I was directing in the theater. Actually, I had done a production of The Little Prince. And though-- One of the reviewers-- And this was in Hollywood. And and one of the reviewers said, this director is so visual, her work is just so cinematic, I don't know why she's not directing in Hollywood. Why is she not a director in film? And I thought, Oh, why am I not a director in film? Hello! I can do that.

Were there many other women directing for the stage when you first got started? or were you kind of out there by yourself?

There were, oh, god, so many more women directing in theater than directing, obviously, in film. There was nobody in film. And the theater today, I would say, is populated probably by 75% of women directors, over men, which is obviously not true in film.

Do you remember what your first job was directing television?

Well, before I directed television, I made several movies, several feature films. I wasn't interested in television. Oh, no, no, you have to do movies, features, whoo! But you also have to raise the money for those. And so there goes five years of your life while you're raising the money to make this wonderful film. Then you have to go take care of that film and take it to all the festivals all over Europe and whatever. And then you come back and you're trying again, raising the money again for your next feature. And that was ultimately what pushed me-- After three features, that's what pushed me into television. But without making those features, I wouldn't have gotten into television, because I would have had nothing to show. But because I had made those features, I was able to say see, I can do this.

So that was Legacy and The Mafu Cage?

Legacy, The Mafu Cage and Lady Beware.

So was the independent route. really your only way to direct at that point for film or even television?

Well, I didn't even think about television. It was strictly I was going to be a director. And there were European women who were directing, making films. And there were a handful of documentarians and and back in our early days, of course, starting with of course, Alice Guy-Blache and Lois Weber and Dorothy Arsner and going all the way through. I supposedly was the first woman to get a DGA card after Ida Lupino. I've tried to suss this out. I got my card in 74, 75. But the DGA is kind of shaky about putting that down. They have me down as 79. Well, that's house****. I got-- I was directing on Universal Studios at 1975. The first TV job was Rich Man, Poor Man. And because I had been in the theater all those years-- Back in my musical comedy days, I was doing Irma la Douce and all of these wonderful roles. And I was at the Barn Theatre in Michigan, and there was a guy there who was one of the kind of producer guys, Michael Gleason. And we used to sit on my bed and drink rotgut wine and he would talk about how he was going to go to Hollywood and he was going to be a big writer, producer. And I was going to go to Hollywood, and I was going to be a big star. Blah, blah, blah. Well, he got to Hollywood and he became a big writer producer, Michael Gleason. And he wrote and produced Rich Man, Poor Man. So, I went to him and I said, Michael, I'm directing now. And I had Legacy and I had The Mafu Cage,I think, at that point. I don't think I had-- I forget the years of all of these things. God, when you're my age. Hello. No, I hadn't done Lady Beware. Yeah, but I had done Mafu and Legacy. So I gave him the films. He looked at them. And he went to the Tower. And he said to the suits in the Tower, I want to give her a Rich Man, Poor Man. And they said, Oh, Michael, xxxx her, don't hire her. He said, You don't understand. I don't want to xxxx her. I want to hire her. She's a good director. Perfect for our show. Anyway, he put his, he put his job on the line for me. And I got Rich Man, Poor Man.

That is amazing. And I know but like so for our listeners that don't know what she's talking about what the tower there's a building that's black. That's called the tower at the Universal Studios. It's where all the executives are. And when you go there, it's it's quite intimidating, often.

Very intimidating. (Laughs) Yeah, perfect.

Well, that was kind of a throw-you-in-the-deep-end sort of experience from going to independent film into a network television miniseries? What were the things that you found that you had to learn or relearn when you first stepped into that role for that show?

Well, I parked my car where it said director on the lot, right by the soundstage. And I start into the soundstage and the security guard said, Wait a minute, wait a minute, lady. Hey, lady, you can't you can't park there. That's for the directors. I said, I am the director. Through the-- Through my script over my shoulder and marched in on my high heels. That was fun day one. And then day one, the assistant director when I got on the soundstage said, Okay, we're starting in the dining room, and I've moved the wall over there. So we can-- So you can put your camera there. And I said, Excuse me? You moved the wall? He said, yeah. I said, you don't know where I'm putting the camera. I said, AD, right? Director, right? Put the wall back. Oh, but it'll take-- I said, I don't care what it takes. Put the wall back. We won't shoot in the dining room right now. We'll go to the living room. We'll shoot scene, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then at the end of the day, we went back to the dining room, and I said, Okay, now you can pull the wall. But it's that quaking in your boots, but you have to demand your position. And I just knew that by having done whatever else I'd done my whole life.

That's fantastic.

I just, you're my hero now. Those two stories.

It was so cute that-- I was leaving the first day to go back to my director spot, right, to get my thing and to get my car. And this big old burly kind of guy came to me and he said, you know, he said, I'm an electrician. I'm up in the gods. And he said, I've been looking at you. I've never seen a woman director before. He said, You're pretty good. You know?

(Laughs)

Good old guy. It was so cute. I earned my stripes.

Absolutely.

That is so great. Did more jobs come or were they or did they--

You know, our Hart to Hart followed pretty soon after that. And I did. I did. I don't know, 10, 12, 15 Hart to Harts. I did a ton of them. And Remington Steele. And--

We're gonna slow down because I want to talk about Hart to Hart. It's a show that we will at some point cover we haven't covered yet on this show, but because of Stephanie Powers-- And and every other person who talks to me about the show when I'm like, Oh, I'm doing this podcast. Because like Stephanie Powers, you gonna talk about Stephanie Powers? So can you tell us a little bit about working on Hart to Hart and with those actors?

It was it was fabulous. The content of the show was always fantastical. So it threw you into Chinatown or, or you're off in Afghanistan or your whatever. Of course, you're on the backlot, but it gave you all these things to do. Oh, you're a mystery. You're this, you're that. You're a thriller. You're-- Oh, you're funny. You're a romance. Oh, fun. So you're constantly having all of this great stuff. And at the beginning, the great Mart Crowley was a producer, and so I got to work with him. And that was terribly exciting. And Stephanie, when I first met her, she was the one who had wanted a woman director. And so she had gone to the powers and said, I want a woman director. And so my name came up and I went and watched them work, and they could be tough on directors. They could be tough. I saw several directors walk away, one in tears, one kind of like shell shocked. And I thought, oh god, here I come into the lion's den. And so the day before I started to shoot. I'd been on the set meeting people and all that. And Stephanie called me into her trailer. And she said, you know, Karen, she said, you have to be authoritative. She said, I see you. You hug people. Well, I'm a hugger. And I said, you're hugging the crew and that you can't do that. Hands off. You-- I mean, whoa, you have to maintain your distance. And I thought, oh, boy, here it goes. And I said, Steph,. you know what, I'm just me. I hug people. I love people. I'm sorry. I'm gonna-- I can't stop hugging people. That's just who I am. No, she said. That, that's good. It'll work out fine. No worries. And she and I used to sit on their big bed. I've got Stephanie stories that I can't tell. But she and I used to sit on on the big bed during the takes, during all of the, while the crew setting up and we would sit there and we would talk like a couple of girls at a slumber party. You know, it was fabulous. She was amazing. Such a stunning actress. I saw her not too long ago off Broadway. And we just went wow, oh my god. And you know, and caught up. It was-- She's just stunning. But you know, we went through on Hart to Hart. We went through Natalie's death. And throught Holden's death, both of them within-- I won't say weeks, but months of each other. One had just recovered when the other one-- I mean, it was just it was it was uncanny and horrible and terrible, and just the worst. Just the worst.

Oh my gosh, things like that either, I think, bring everybody that's working together together. Or it--

It was a pretty together group to begin with, you know, so-- And that, you know, both of them were such huge stars in their own right. I remember going to the wake at RJ's house for Stephanie. And I walked in the door and they were all these fabulous people and, and RJ took a grabbed me and said, Oh, Karen, I'm so glad you came. I want you to meet my dear friend Elizabeth Taylor. And you know, it was they were stars in a firmament that you don't often see in television now. And so they had this other life, as it were. Certainly Holden did and RJ and Natalie

So there wasn't a point where it seemed like perhaps the show might end as a result of these two tragedies that happened so close together?

Uh-uh.

Well, that's good.

Because I think they they truly loved each other. They loved making the show. You know, it was always fun. It was always alive and whatever. And and I think the money was pretty damn good.

That doesn't hurt.

Oh, no, doesn't hurt at all.

Well, Remington Steele is one of my favorite shows from back in the 80s. What can you tell us about your experience working on that show? I know you did a couple episodes for them.

Well, again, that's my friend Michael Gleason from Rich Man, Poor Man. He created that as well. And of course, in the middle of it, Pierce got offered James Bond and had to say no, because he still was under contract. So that was a pretty sad thing. Pierce was just-- He's an actor you don't come across very often. This guy used to eat flaming torches, you know, in Piccadilly Circus. I mean, he was-- He could do anything and he was shoot-at-the-hip, hysterically funny. And poor Stephanie was running to catch up all the time. Because if you don't have that God-given talent, you just don't. And Pierce was just a one off, aside from being one of the great men of all times and mench. And we went through the beginnings of his wife getting cancer and then he stayed with her through her demise and so forth. He had a very tough life and had those boys to raise so-- But he and I all we-- You either have the same kind of funny bone or you don't. Pierce and I always had this similar funny bone. So we got on really well. I loved him. He was great.

Well, I was I was struck by the episodes that you directed because they were sort of these very-- I mean, the show was a little bit-- I think it there's one quote from Stephanie Zimbalist where it was like three feet off the ground. But you directed in season two, two episodes-- Steel Threads, which was about the fashion line and and Laura and Remington stumbling into murder and high intrigue; and, and then episode 13, High Flying Steele, where they have to go undercover at a circus carnival.

Florida coast, right, right.

Where they get to be trapeze artists and Pierce Brosnan gets to eat fire.

What he used to do for a living. (Laughs)

Awesome, that was so awesome

Really fun, really fun.

You know, it's it makes so much sense in watching your direction that you were a choreographer because there's such beautiful choreography to your shots and to the scenes that you put together. And I'm thinking particularly of the scene in Laura's apartment where they're practicing their trapeze and you do this whole exposition scene with them just sort of swinging back and forth on these two trapezes.

Yeah. Wow. But you see that-- And I'm glad you brought that up, Susan, because that's the that's what I mean by you drag your past with you. You drag all that you know with you. And I mean, I remember getting the Emmy for Cagney & Lacey and and saying, Barney, who put up with all my 10-minute masters. Because I would choreograph everything and we would start in a close up and then burner and we're over here and over there and then we went in another close up and-- (Mumbling) Then boom, we're done. And one day I was done at like three o'clock and I said, oh. Because I did everything in big master shots. And then I would come back and cover if I needed to, but that you know-- And the crew loved it because they were all running with the dollies and the electrical pole of the whole--Everybody's running. Okay, back to one. Start over again. And there we go. We're off again. Here we go. And and it was true, but that was my style because I was a choreographer. And so I wanted everything on its feet, everything moving, camera always moving, you know. I met my husband, you know, the great director of photography, Thomas Neuwirth, on Cagney. & Lacey. We fell madly in love on the first show that we did together which was Heat, which won the Emmy. And he and I are about to celebrate our 39th year together.

That's fantastic.

Congratulations. That's amazing.

And we made all my movies, his movies, our movies, from Cagney & Lacey on together.

That is so great. And so I guess we're going to jump ahead to Cagney & Lacey. So you did like eight episodes for Cagney & Lacey in season three and four. And you've worked on on-- The second one you worked on was called Choices about sort of a shady landlord died, and so there's an investigation into the witness and-- And then meanwhile, Chris Cagney has a pregnancy scare, which is, you know-- It's always very exciting when there's an emotional personal component to those episodes. But it seems like that's the first time you work with editor Millie more

Could have been. Millie and I had a long career after that. Again, we met on that show. And then I took her with me for several other shows that that when I started doing MOWs, and then miniseries. And so we had a long career as well,

You're sort of collecting people along the way, you know. (Laughs)

You do, you do. You find there's somebody that there's a shorthand in vocabulary, and you understand each other, you don't have to spell it out. Somebody has your similar similar rhythm, or your similar, you know, I whether it's cameraman or you're an editor, and I was trained by a great editor, Carol Littleton. She was my editor on Legacy and Mafu Cage. And her husband, John Bailey was my cameraman on those. So I had the best. And we all came up together, the three of us. And Carol and John-- We were being interviewed for Mafu Cage for a DVD version. And they gave me the greatest compliment I've ever had. They said that, working with Karen, she set the bar so high, that that's what we have attempted to reach and stay there for the rest of our creative lives. And it was truly because we were-- I'd had Mafu Cage screened at MoMA. And so for-- Oh, for a filmmaker to be honored. So I was doing the Q&A and and the gal who was-- Karen, who was interviewing me, she said what was so special about Mafu? And I said-- Had to think for a minute, and then I said you know it was before I moved into television. And when you move into television, you get producers, financiers, studios, executives. All of these people now are telling you what to do, how to do it, when to do it, what not to do. Oh, we don't like this; we like this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. When you make an independent film, nobody tells you what to do. It's right here, it's right here. And you go out and you create with these wonderful people that you've pulled together because this is a collaborative art form. And together, you just create whatever is in your mind that you want to create. You can't get back to that place in television. You just can't.

Wow.

That's, that's a very good description of the difference. I think. I think there's some a little bit with streaming and there's some indie, like, sort of indie streaming projects that feel like--

You're in the indie. And and, you know, but the minute somebody pays for something, that's where you start getting chipped away at. So it's very, very, it's financially oriented. And I believe for a long while, that's why women were not given the seat, the horns, the reins, I mean, because not that we couldn't drive the horse. But we didn't have the money to buy the horse. And men have been very tightfisted financially in wanting to support a woman and her efforts. And so when you think back, it's all about the Tower, not wanting to give that little girl the range.

Well, I think we've I think we can stop our podcasts, right?

I think just, you encapsulated it. We're done. Check. This is so great. So let's let's go back to Cagney. & Lacey, where kind of all these amazing people you met and, and things happened. So the fourth episode that you do is is Heat. And that is the episode you won the Emmy for. Starring, guest starring--

That was on-- That started a new season. The other two were done. The cameraman on that was Sharon Gless' husband. Oh, it'll come to me. And then Tom, my Tom took over on Heat, and totally changed the squad room in terms of the lighting apparatus and all of that. And that was a show that we shot all on location because Lacy Street was being earthquake proofed. So it was, uh, five days or six days, I forget how many days we did, but we did it all on location.

Susan-Sharon 26:51
(Laughing)

And to tell our listeners if you haven't watched it, it is comes in season four, I believe, Heat, and stars Michael Madsen pretty early in his career, not long after Diner, and he had done The Natural and War Games. But Mary Beth is taken hostage in a trainyard by a very dangerous person, and there's a big standoff. And it's very hot. Because they're they first are stuck in a in a train car. He sort of wholes up in a train car. And it's it's very different. It's shot very different from the other episodes. It feels very different. You know, again, we're we can kind of catch these things on streaming. And sometimes it's not accurate. But in in the episode that I watched-- And Sharon, I don't know, we haven't talked about this. It started without the credits.

Also, if you notice, there's no music.

Yeah.

Barney said, I'm not going to put any music on this. It is so powerful without having anything other than heightened sound effects. And that was his call. But but no music.

That's made--When you were shooting that were you like this, is this one's special?

Well, it was it was the first one with Tommy, I could sense that as a director and a director photography, this was a amazing connection blend. And also we were falling in love. So it was very special.

Wow, that's a big year.

(Laughs)

Holy crap. And so then you go on and continue doing episodes and all-- So he just stayed-- He was the DP from then on?

For a long time, yeah. I have to, well after I left. Yeah, he stayed for a while after that. And then he started to join me doing movies of the week. And then we hit the miniseries rock'n'roll time, you know?

Alright, so let's talk about the Emmy win. I want to actually kind of go right before that win and talk about when you were nominated. It's 1985. You were the first woman to ever be nominated for a directing Emmy. After 35 years of Emmys, what did that feel like?

I didn't think we were going to win, I was going to win at all. I didn't even buy a new dress. I had an old nightclub gown that I used to use in my nightclub act. And I had a feather boa that I used to use in my nightclub act. I used to skip rope in it so it was weighted on on ends. So I thought I'm just going in the old (), you know this, I'm not gonna get this. I said to Tommy, I don't know why you're getting a limo. This is crazy. You're spending all this money for a limo. Come on, we're not going to win. So when I won, it was-- (Laughs) pretty wild.

So the network didn't even send you to the Emmys in limo at the very least?

Oh, please. Like they're on the bus, who cares? Not the likes of me. Maybe the likes of other people they bring to the Emmys, but not me. No way.

Melissa Roth 30:45
Oh my god.

Tommy got him limo, so we were in that limo.

The limo. You went home in style with an Emmy in your hand? Did you go home with the Emmy?

You got it.

You get to go home with me that night?

Sure. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

That's fantastic. All right. So did it change things for you in your career?

Oh, sure. Oh, God. Yes. Oh, God. Yes.

In what ways? What ways did it, did it change things?

That was the same year? I guess I hadn't put together that as the same year.

That's amazing.

Yeah. He said, he said, you've you've already he said she should get an award for this. But you've already given her an award. So my director Karen Arthur, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm walking out. Tommy and I are walking out and in my old gown holding Miami, and I go by the man, a woman who wanted to fire me and he says, oak, come here, come here, come here, and I went over yours. Oh, we're so proud of you and bad, bad. And I said, Okay, thank you. And he said, We want to hire you to do the next three movies of the week. You can choose whatever you want. So did it make a change? Absolutely. Even in people who were ready to flush it down the toilet, it made a change.

Well, people opened up. I think-- Actually, it's a funny story. Yeah, Return to Eden. Return to Eden was before the Emmy. And the executives at Return to Eden, we were away shooting in Seattle area. And the suits didn't like what they were seeing. And so they said, fire 'em. So we got a call from the suits saying that we were fired. I was fired. And then of course, ever, other people go. And the producers who wrote the piece were very strong. And they said No way, man, we're not firing her. You fire her, you're going to lose everybody. Come on, no way. We're moving. We like what's going on here and we're the writers we created it. Okay, so they managed to save the job. So when we were watching-- In those days, you used to see a screening with executives and everybody when the show was finished, and we'd finished editing and you know. So I'm sitting there I would always sit way in front so I could hear what they were rabbiting about (grubling) And that's good, whatever. Anyway, this the man and a woman who had been my executives who had wanted to fire me, the lights come up. And Brandon Stoddard. I think it was Brandon Stoddard and Tartikoff. But I think Brandon Stoddard was the guy at I think it was CBS. And he said, This is so-- Oh, it was ABC. He said, This is so fantastic. I love this movie. I'm going to make it ABC circled blah blah blah blah. And of course, the man and woman who had fired us or fired me, said, Oh, yes, it's just oh, it's smooth. So the night of the Emmys, Richard Crenna gets an Emmy for The Rape of Richard Beck, right? And of course, I got mine.

Wow. That's amazing. And I you literally like I didn't put it together that that was the same year that you know because that's amazing. So you're like just all over the Emmys that year.

Yeah, well--

The queen of the Emmys.

And of course, Sharon and Tyne won and--

It was Cagney & Lacey was pretty much a juggernaut, right? 34 nominations.

Karen-Susan-Sharon 34:34
(Laughing)

I love what you're saying too though about your decision to sit down in the front of the screening so you could hear what the people behind you were were saying to each other. Did you ever get any interesting tidbits or, whether you want to tell us in them or not, about things that were helpful to you or interesting or anything that you might have learned or gleaned?

You know, Sharon, because the network and, the executives are so much a part of the editing process, you know, much to your chagrin, most of the time. However, there have been many, many times when I have learned a great deal from somebody who I maybe during the writing process or the initial process, I might have tossed away. They are very, very intelligent on many levels. And unfortunately, you get into a combative situation, just by the nature of the being until they really get to know you and respect you, then you can have great relationships with executives, which I have had. But if you're coming in cold, as it were, you know, takes time, like any relationship. So yeah, I would hear things that I would go, Whoa, that's a damn good idea. Or I can-- No, I'll make a change in the in the edit or whatever. You know, you're, you're always learning. I mean, we're babies in this world, you know, certainly I was to start. You don't know anything. And so you're picking it up from whoever. Oh, that's good idea. You have to recognize the idea, mind you, but okay, that's good idea.

Did someone give you the idea to do that, to sit down in front? I'm not sure that, how many people would have thought, Okay, this is a great place for perhaps, where I can learn some things.

It is a bold-- As someone who sits in the back during my things, but and in some ways, I think, for me in theater, when I'm doing a theater show, I like to sit in the back so I can watch the audience.

You're absolutely right. And in theater, I'm always in the back row. And in a screening of my movies. I'm always in the back row, but not when I want to hear what the bigwigs are saying Then I want to be in the front row. Also, I think if I'm in the back, I intimidate them. Oh, she's watching us. Oh, she's gonna see what we're thinking, Oh, we can't do that. So you know.

I love that move.

Yeah, that's great.

If I'm ever back in film, I will be using that move.

It's very different. But when when you want to know something, it's good. Just in your little ears are perked up, you know,

That's great. Now. Okay, so one more question about the Emmy win. Do you think your Emmy win changed things for other women?

Oh, of course, of course. And I was up against the big dogs, men. The big guys who always win. And so the fact that I got that over them said something also, which would have helped break the glass ceiling at that point. Absolutely.

Yeah. It's sort of a shame that it took 10 years I think for another Emmy woman to win the director.

Mimi. Mimi shot one of my films for me a million years before that. When I was at the AFI Women's Directing Workshop. And I was in the first year with all those great women-- Anne Bancroft, and you know, Lee Grant and all these great gals. And so we we made two films, and one of those films. Now I think Mimi shot both of them is matter of fact, as her daddy was a filmmaker, you know.

Well, yeah, you know.

Yeah. I mean, I think was Mimi Leder.

Yeah. Yes. That's amazing. Yeah, she she directed a pilot of my husband's that never went, but I loved meeting her.

She's a great gal, great gal. Yeah. Wonderful salt of the earth. You know, just another story of film projection and how things happen. I was in a, trying to raise money for Legacy. And AFI gave me some screening time. So I have a screening and I'd invite prospective, you know, investors. And I knew this wealthy guy from Palm Beach and I invited him and he came in like, a half hour late in his tennis togs and sat down for about 20 minutes and got up and left early. And I thought, Oh, well, thank you, George. Thank you for coming. And then the next day, he called me and said, Karen, I'm having a screening for your film, and it's going to be at 20th Century Fox at five o'clock. Be there or be square. So, okay, fine. So I go, and I have no idea. All I can see are heads. You know, I'm in the projection booth looking to see who's there, just heads. So the film's over and I go out to say hello to everybody. Say hello to George and his wife Cloris Leachman. Who knew? And their very dear friends Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward and the his very good friend Stuart Stern, the writer and Rogers and Cowan, the big PR guys.

(Laughs)

They funded my movie. They each wrote me a check right then and there. And I got the rest of the money for that film.

Wow. Wow.

Later on, I was an actress and I was in a movie with-- Winning with Paul and Joanne and RJ. So that was a funny situation. And then later I was doing a movie with Marlee Matlin. And I wanted to get the rights to Glass Menagerie. We were doing a deaf version of it. And I knew they had just done it on film. And they were doing, she was doing Sweet Bird of Youth in Toronto, and I was filming another movie over there. So I grabbed the producer, I said, we're going back to going back stage. I said, Yeah. And so I you know, they said okay, and instead of just her being there, there was Paul with his beer. You know, Hey, Karen, Legacy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I said, My God, I need help. I need blah, blah, blah. And they gave me Maria son just who was the Tennessee Williams, head of the estate and we got the rights to do Glass Menagerie signed. So you know--

Oh, that's fantastic. How generous and kind of them to do that as well.

Wanted them just see the talent.

So on Cagney, & Lacey, which of the shows that we've started covering, we look kind of look at the numbers and the stats when it comes to both women directors and writers on those shows. And, and quite honestly, Cagney & Lacey comes out pretty good. Did you notice that? When you were on Cagney, & Lacey, that there was a higher percentage of women writers and directors?

Karen-Sharon 41:30
(Laugh)

Well, remember it was started by Barbara Corday. Yes. So it was she who gave it its legs. And Barbara was always very open to women. And I mean, she needed help up the ladder. And so she was willing to help women up the ladder. And Barney was very female supportive. I mean, there's no question about Barney's loyalty to women and belief in their talents and fighting for them. Well, I haven't seen Sharon in forever but I bumped into Tyne every now and again because we're both New Yorkers and and I go to we go to the theater and bump into each other in the theater. Yeah. Now so. So I get to see her.

You have worked with some incredible actresses and actors. Any standouts, any other amazing people that you're like, Oh my God, this really changed the way I thought about things?

Well, there have been a lot and and, you know, for somebody who comes from not a star background like myself, when you work with bonafide stars, there is always that oh, how will I be accepted in this world? These are not just TV stars. These are you know, people like Vanessa Redgrave and Michael York. And while Angelina was a baby when I got her but you know,

Angelina Jolie for True Women.

Yeah, Angela Jolie and Ed Harris. I gave him on Hart to Hart, his first job, his first--

I'm sorry.

Ed Harris

You gave Ed Harris's his first job on Hart to Hart?

Yeah,

Oh, my god, we're gonna go have to find that.

I know.

He had done a biker movie. And I saw that and I just I was just struck, I said, this man is so stunning. And I literally I would sit there behind the camera and just go like that, because he's doing what? (Laughs) He was so awesome. But you know, you get people in and it's really exciting. So part of it is you trying to calm your inner-- Wooo! And at the same time, you know, you have an opportunity to work with these great people and, and understand what their process is. Because as a director, that's always my goal is number one is the actor. Who are you? How do you work? How do you like to work? What do you want from me? What don't you want from me? Where can I be for you? Where shouldn't I be for you? You know, can I give you background research? Can I do this? Can I do that? It's all having that opening for them to be as comfortable or uncomfortable as they choose to be given the way they choose to work.

Was that something you've developed as a result of your experience as a performer and working with directors?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, times when you feel that a director is smothering you and you don't have room. It's like I learned a great lesson from Lee Grant and Carol Kane. I'm a very effusive person, a very positive person up, up up, you know, and I would go on the set in the morning and we're doing. (Gibberish) And one morning, they said they wanted to see me before we started. And I went in, and these two kind of faces, and Lee said, Karen, you know, you, you just don't give us any room to fail. And I said, What do you mean? Well, you're so positive. You know everything all the time. You never questioning anything. You're just always there. I said, I'm the director, I'm supposed to do that. And they said, No, you've got to be a little less sure so we can be a little less sure. So we can try things out rather than having to live up to your expectations. That one was a big lesson.

Wow.

Wow. And so how do you shift that since it's so close to your personality?

I'm not 100% sure all the time. I fake it a lot. I think girls fake a lot of () all our lives. You know, we're constantly going, Oh, I can be that. I can do that. I can-- So it allowed me to say, okay, there are times when I don't feel that on top of it. To either go to the actor and say, you know, I'm not feeling really great about this scene. What what am I missing here? Or what can we do to-- Got any ideas here, you know? Just to include the question, and include other people in the question. I never had any problem doing that with a cameraman or an editor or whatever. But I always felt that I was the director and I was supposed to be the person that directed the actors. And so I never gave the actors that space, that other space, you know,

Wow,

What a, like, what a great thing to learn. And to be able to make that adjustment. And I mean, that's the actor, right? That's the that's the performer who learns how to make adjustments.

jAustments. Exactly.

That's, that's amazing. So I have a question about women on set again, and women on crew. Have you ever worked on a show where there was 50% or more women on the cast and crew?

Oh, yeah. When when when I did Mafu Cage, it was only I think, I think we were 95% women.

Wow.

But then I had control. I could do that. But not not really. And you know, I don't think it's a good idea. It is like I was a film festival kiddie for a lot of years. It was my my movies, were my frequent flyer, I've went all over the world and did all the film festivals from Cannes on and on and on and on. And and there was a several film festivals, which were women's film festivals, that I would go to, and or be invited to, as you know, participate, I should say in. And they made me angry when they wouldn't allow men. No men in the audience! Now, I'm not even talking about no men in the participants, but no men in the audience. Oh, wait, this is insane. The whole thing is got to be about coming together. So I really don't like the concept of all women on a crew. Other than obviously, you're giving women an opportunity to do something and that's important. But I just think I believe in a homogenous behavior together was the way we make it through life. I want to be hand in hand with my fellow man and woman.

And so you you worked from from the 60s all the way through the 2000s. What changes did you see both in just how television gets made and then movies got made, and just in terms of of the opportunities for women and you know, that everybody working together?

Well, the-- You know, I made through the years obviously, some very dear friends who were female directors or whatever their persuasion was. And we would clock in every now and again, Certainly film festivals are a wonderful way to connect to it women in Europe and and the world that I would not have been able to know about in my own backyard. And obviously women were starting to do more and more work. And that was exciting, but at the same time my career was growing, I was into big miniseries and things like that, and you become a little myopic, you know, because it's just a lot to-- Those are big jobs. And they take an enormous amount of your time and effort and energy. And I could lose track very easily of who was doing what or whatever. And Joan Tewkesbury, and I used to come together every now and again and break bread. And various other gals, you know, that that I knew. Martha Coolidge and whatnot. And, you know, we would catch each other up to date as to what was going on. But I think basically, you get on your own horse, and you're just riding so hard that you don't-- Your peripheral vision is not as good as it might be. We've seen that in the past few years with several women who have had big successes, and gone on to get another big chance and another big chance. It's always getting that one big chance, that one chance so that people can say, Oh, I saw that. Oh, she did a damn good job on that. Oh, that made money. Okay, you know, but it's getting that shot. And that's where the people who believe in you become wildly important. Because then they stand behind you, you know.

yeah, I'm struck by all this all your stories, how somebody was sort of in your corner, fighting for you, because they believed in you. And that's such a valuable part of being a creative person at all, is to have that. And I am also really struck by your choices. And I don't know how much is just okay, here's the job that was offered to me. And here's the job I want.

No, I became Miss Karen No. I would throw those scripts in the fireplace. We lived in Malibu and I would just toss 'em in, you know? No, no, my agent would go cuckoo. You can't say no again. I said, but it's not about anything. These are my babies. I don't have children. I make movies. These are my babies. How can I put that out on the planet? That's about men killing women? Oh, I can't do that. How can I put this out? This is not anything important. I'm going to spend 10 months of my life on this. What? I got to do that every day and go to that ugly place? No, I can't do it. No, no, no. So I've been very selective about what I choose to do, and have been so fortunate to have great scripts. And I had a producing partner for years, Craig Anderson, of the-- Has more talent and grace and creativity and and sensitivity than anybody I know. And so we would just look for projects that were just special and-- You live with it every hour of every day at-- You know, it's in your head or you're actually doing it or you're cutting it or you're worried about it. And then if it's if it's not worth it, why do it? Ugh.

The Rape of Richard Beck in 1985. And again, I'm now just realizing, same, same Emmy year. For our listeners, it's also known as Deadly Justice. So if you're searching for it, sometimes it comes up as that but it aired as that because I remember this airing because it was such a powerful title. And a powerful story starring Richard Crenna, Meredith Baxter. Crenna won an Emmy for his portrayal of the hard-bitten, tough cop who's not incredibly sympathetic to other victims of violence and sexual violence. And he becomes a victim himself of sexual assault, and has to deal with the aftermath of that. And 1985, you're making this movie about male rape and the aftermath of sexual assault. How did that come to happen?

That was a, that was a true story. The cop was in Seattle. Was he? Yeah, I think Seattle. Even the in, we shot there. Not for that reason. But and that was a true story. And these two writers, Jim and-- Jim and Jim, we used to call them. I can't remember their last names. I'm sorry, guys. But they were terrific. And they were producers as well. And they-- What had they seen? Something of mine. And and they took me to lunch at a at a Japanese restaurant. I'm remembering, and told me about the story. And I just was like, oh my god, I love this story. I think this is amazing. And I pitched my husband-- My husband. My lover as the DP and of course they wonder, Oh my god, oh my God! And I have a DP and a director sleeping together. Oh no, this is terrible. We can't put the wedge in between the two. Oh my god. Anyway, that was the big thing with that, but they finally said okay, and they were fabulous. They were just fabulous.

And Richard Crenna won an Emmy for that performance.

He came on the set the first day-- Crenna is one of the great recontours of all time. I mean, you can't, he's got stories-- Oh, my god, they're just fabulous. So he comes on the set the first time we were just getting ready to shoot, and everybody is there. You know, first shot and all that. And he turns around, and he pulls his pants down and moons us. And on the back of his fanny, it says be kind. (Laughs)

That breaks some tensions, I'm sure.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So we were ready to go then. (Laughs)

And did that have-- Like, what impact do you think that TV movie had? I mean, how did people respond?

Well, as I mentioned, the network really got behind it and made it an ABC Circle film. So that was a big deal at that time, and the critics were just effusive about it. In terms of the public eye, you know, you never really know. I just know that through the years people have said to me, Oh, my god, you did Rape of Richard Beck. Oh, that was so way before it's time and so fab--. So I know it stays in people's mind, you know, that, that when you hear something of a long career and old movie, and that it somebody, it still resonates for somebody that that's that's very powerful.

Well, and that brings me to the Theresa Saldana story of Victims for Victims, because I think-- I'm 90% sure that I actually reviewed it for the USC Daily Trojan newspaper. It was like a press, you know, event, but it was sort of impactful as a young person to like, actually hear her story and then and then see the movie. And she plays herself in the movie about the attack on on herself and her recovery and how, basically post-traumatic stress from being a victim of violence, turned her into a bit of an activist who created a, an organization for other victims to support each other.

Yeah, called Victims for Victims.

And how did you get involved in that?

That was on the heels of Cagney & Lacey. Yes, because that was Orion. And Orion was the home for Cagney & Lacey. And they had this script. And I was doing all of these things and had won the Emmy and all of that. So Orion came to me and said, Here's-- It's-- Because it was my first movie of the week, was Victims for Victims. And that's how it came about. And, and I spent a lot of time with Theresa. And I remember the first time she came to my house. We walked in and I said I Do you want some coffee or something? I went into the kitchen, and she immediately grabbed the knife rack and threw it out of the way. And you know, and she was still very, very raw. That was-- It was really extraordinary. And seeing this man who-- He kept all these diaries of what he was going to do, what he was going to do to her and all of this. You know, he came from Scotland over here to do it. And he wrote-- I mean, like the head of a pin. And just-- They were they look redacted, rhey were so black from the obsessiveness of this man's insanity. His psychosis was just off the scale.

Wow.

All right, well, that's a good place to take a break. We're gonna take a break, then we'll come back and wrap up. We're back. And we're gonna have to wrap up, even though this interview has been so much fun. We could just talk for days. Any place where like, I know you, you made a documentary--

I retired. But when we retired, we moved to Nassau in the Bahamas and got bored very quickly. And I always go to museums wherever I go so that I can understand what the, what people are like, based on what their art is like. And so I'm at this museum and the National Gallery I'm looking at and I said, Well, where are the masters? This is a very uber contemporary show. Where the masters? And they said, Oh, well, we don't have room for that. Whatever. I said oh?. I said, ah ha! Tommy. We have a new-- We have a documentary! Let's learn how to make documentaries. (Laughs) So we made four features on Bahamian artists. And this was the joy of joys. Number one, to work in documentaries, which is a whole other world. And number two to work with artists and so it was an extraordinary experience. And we were able to give to that country this legacy of these gorgeous documentaries and narrated, some of them, by Sidney Poitier and whatnot. And anyway, that was a fabulous thing. So that was part of our retirement. And then I went back into the theater, and I've been directing in the theater now. So.

Susan Lambert Hatem 1:00:22
If there's some place that people want to keep up with what you're up to, is there a way for them to find you? Or are you just like, you just have to search hard?

Karen Arthur 1:00:31
I don't do anything.

Don't do anything. Okay. That's-- Listen, that's a good way to keep sane. All right. So we are going to have three questions. What's the 80s ladiess TV show-- and you can name your own-- that resonated with you in the 80s?

Was Sopranos in the 80s?

No, but it's a good show.

Yeah, I like that show. I like it. Well, Cagney & Lacey. I mean, I thought that was a banner show. Whether I had directed it or not, I would have been glued, just because of the bravery and the female issues, and so on and so forth. So yeah.

All right.

Sharon Johnson 1:01:08
Are there any female-driven shows that are on now or that you've seen recently, that, that you really like?

You know, I don't watch television. I watch features. I'm heavy into Criterion Channel. I see all that. I say, Okay, I'm doing Lina Wertmüller now this this month, or week or whatever, how long I can take it. And watch every piece she ever directed in chronological order, and or whatever the director is. So that that's what I do when I'm looking at stuff like that, you know. but I'm not a big-- I couldn't even name a TV show that I've seen of the nine networks out there. And I know they're fabulous, because they are now not only content, but also visually, they are able to do things that we could never have done in for instance, Hart to Hart or Rich Man, Poor Man or whatever, because-- Oh, they wanted everything shot with, you know, the sun coming in, you know, then there's no such thing as shadows or things or whatever. So the whole thing has changed. The whole medium has changed. And for the better, both content-wise and-- Not so much performance, because actors are actors, and they're all going to be fabulous when they are. But content and visual acuity, I think, is very different and wonderful. Very supportive of that.

And what is like the most sort of either action hero or television like-- Something like a moment in your life where you're like, is this scripted? Is is somebody just made up this moment for me? Do you have a moment like that? Either on set or off set?

I don't think so. I mean, I'm sure I do. I'm sure I've got a thousand of them, but I can't pull one up right now. Uh-uh.

All right. Well, that's a good place to leave it, in the mystery.

Karen-Susan-Sharon 1:03:06
(Laughing)

Susan jumps in and fixes all things.

(Laughing)

You've brought us so many great stories, and such a particular and unique and beautiful point of view, and lovely projects that you talked about. So thank you so much.

Your insights from behind the camera are, I think, will be so interesting and invaluable for our listeners. And as Susan said, we could talk to you for days, weeks, months, I don't know. It's been fantastic.

Well, thank you. Thank you for acknowledging me, remembering me. And for all of the work, which is so as I mentioned earlier, it's a collaboration and all of the great artists that I had the opportunity to work with, to create these wonderful pieces. So thank you from all of us.

Thank you and hugs to your husband and I'm so excited that he was a part of Cagney & Lacey and thank him for his work and all the work that you guys worked on together. And can we, can we see your Emmy?

Susan-Sharon 1:04:09
(Laughing)

It was on the high shelf.

I almost dropped it.

Karen-Sharon 1:04:15
(Laugh)

There it is!

It's so heavy,

They look heavy.

So heavy and funny story. This is a new Emmy. My old Emmy, which I kept. But because I lived in Malibu, the sea ate it.

Oh!

And it busted it's--

Oh, wow.

Bottom. So I called the Emmy people and I said, I have this old corroded Emmy and it just broke its base. Can, can you help me? Can you put it back on? And they said no, we'll give you a new one. I said oh, okay.

Karen-Sharon 1:04:56
(Laughing)

And you didn't even have to give the old one back. That's what's great.

No,I kept it! (Laughs) So this is the new old Emmy. It's a great story. We were gone from the beach at that point, so it didn't get corroded.

It's safe now.

Safe now.

They're heavy. I mean, you pick it up and you go like that, you know?

Well, congratulations. That is fantastic. For both of your Emmys.

(Laughing)

You can pretend you got two! You should have.

If I just had the base on the other one. (Laughs)

Awesome.

Okay, ladies. Thanks.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Melissa, wherever you are. There she is.

Melissa Roth 1:05:44
Thank you so very much.

Absolutely. Okay.

Today's audioography includes two books: Defining Women: Television and the Case of Cagney & Lacey by Julie D'Acci and Primetime Feminism: Television, Media Culture and the Women’s Movement Since 1970 by Bonnie J. Dow.

In this episode's 80s TV Ladies Salute, we want to acknowledge and honor the recent passing of some TV and film ladies. First, Miiko Taka. She was an American actress of Japanese descent, perhaps most famous for starring opposite Marlon Brando in 1954's Sayanara. She was also in the 80s TV miniseries Shogun starring Richard Chamberlain, and Toshiro Mfume,

Gina Lollobrigida, the Italian actress and international sex symbol of the 50s and 60s. In her later years, she became known as a photojournalist and activist. She played Esmeralda in the 1956 Hunchback of Notre Dame opposite Anthony Quinn. She was also very big in 80s television guest starring in five episodes of Falcon Crest, two episodes of Love Boat, and two episodes of a TV miniseries called Deception with Stephanie Powers amongst other projects.

We also recently lost Cindy Williams. She was most famous for playing Shirley Feeney opposite Penny Marshall, first in Happy Days and in their very own successful spinoff Laverne and Shirley. She also notably appeared in American Graffiti and The Conversation.

Annie Wersching. Not an 80s but a very modern TV lady lost way too soon. She was a lovely actress who starred as Renee Walker in later seasons of 24. She also starred in Bosch and Marvel's The Runaways. She was the voice and bodywork for Tess in the video game The Last of Us and had recurring roles in The Rookie and as the Borg queen in Star Trek Picard.

Last we have Lisa Loring, she played Wednesday Addams in the original Addams Family TV series. In the 80s she did some small roles including Cricket Montgomery in the CBS soap As the World Turns.

Thank you, 80s TV Ladies. We'll remember you. Oh my gosh, thank you to all the people who have been writing us, thanking us about the Remington Steele episodes. Thank you, Sherry and Dakota, who's watching with her dad, and is 18 years old. I love that. Younger generations are finding the show.

Also, many thanks to Tracy and Chris, for sharing their thoughts about Remington Steele as well. Love hearing from you guys. Please keep it coming.

And Tracy reminded us-- Basically sent us an article explaining that shows were leaving during the 84 Olympics. So she, we now have proof, solid proof of our theory, and many people had written about that to us. I also love that Chris recommended one more episode she would give to people to make sure they understood the show. When we did our 90 TV Babies episode, we gave them some. And she said we should add season three, episode one, Steel At It, as a good example of the show. Thank you all for reaching out and sending us your feedback. Keep it coming. Let us know what you're thinking about the show and what you like about the show and let us know how you're liking the Cagney & Lacey episodes.

On next episode, we will be bringing back the 90s TV Babies to talk about Cagney & Lacey, and can't wait to hear their thoughts.

We are already making our plans for season two. Tell us what shows you think we should be covering next season. We do want to lighten it up a bit so we're looking for comedies and sitcom suggestions from the 80s filled with ladies. That's the criteria. Send your message at 80sTVladies.com

As always, we hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. all of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the 21st Century.
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Episode 121: “Directing 80s Television w/ Cagney & Lacey's Karen Arthur”

The Conversation

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