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80s TV Ladies Theme Song
80s TV Ladies, So sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, Steppin’ out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, often treated kind of sh#*ty. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Sharon Johnson 00:17
Welcome to 80s TV Ladies. I'm Sharon Johnson.

Susan Lambert Hatem 00:20
And I'm Susan Lambert Hatem. Welcome to part two of our interview with Cagney & Lacey, Producer and Creator, Barney Rosenzweig.

In our last Episode, we talked with Barney about how he got started in the entertainment industry, and some of his early work in publicity on Ben Hur and other MGM movies. And then how he moved from Publicist to Producer.

And we're gonna dive right back into this interview. And if you haven't listened to part one, check out the first part, or listen out of order, and it'll be just like time travel. A little info about this Episode, we had a fantastic conversation with Barney. But there were technical difficulties within this Episode. With part one and part two of Barney's interview, we've done our best with the existing audio.

There are transcripts that will be available for our episodes within two weeks of episode launch, so you can read the interview. But bear with us and know that we are doing everything we can to keep this show sounding better and better. So here comes part two of Cagney, &, Lacey, and Barney.

So you make this TV movie. It's a huge, huge hit. Then what happens?

Barney Rosenzweig 01:27
Well I'm called into Harvey Shepherd's office, the head of (garbled) the Network. Can you turn this into a Series? I said, Watch me. He said , How quick can you deliver? This is October. I knew that on May 1st, he was gonna be in New York for the decision making. I said, I can be on the air March 15th.

That's not a lot of time.

No. We had to be in production no later than January, and making the air dates of the last couple of episodes. And I said Oh, there's one caveat. I don't have a Cagney, unless you want to let Loretta out of M*A*S*H*. And he laughed. No. He says, find a Cagney. I had met Harvey Shepherd once before in my life and it wasn't a particularly warm meeting. Harvey Shepherd who I adore, is not a warm and fuzzy kind of guy. He said this guy's willing to put his career on the line. I said he'll never work here again if he doesn't.

No pressure, you have like, no months to put this show together.

So we begin to write. I got Barbara Avedon. Barbara Avedon is gonna be my story editor. I can't find anybody to hire. Every good writer in town is on, under contract to a Studio. Or doing uh, shows. All the good writers are on good shows. Also, even if they're not on a show, I'm hiring a writer for six Episodes. Other people are hiring 'em for Pilots to 22 Episodes. The difference is money. It's substantial. With 22 shows, there's residuals. With 22 shows there's foreign markets. With six shows, that's all there is. That's all there is! On a (garbled) I then hired Jack Guss. He was my best writer on Daniel Boone. And he brought in a pall o' his, Freddie (Rappaport). So here I am with two guys who are older than me, writing about young women they know nothing about. I need that first script. I need to show it to other writers so they know what we're doing. There's no real Pilot, not doing the (garbled) doing something, we're contained. So I invent... I walk in one day like, like Moses. I say, we're gonna have A story, B story, C story and D. A is a primary crime story featuring one of the two women. B is a personal story featuring the woman who isn't featured in A. C is a personal story featuring the woman who isn't featured in B. D are comic runners. Armed with that, we began to try to hire writers. I'm still waiting for Barbara Avedon's script. One day I find out she's called Harvey Shepherd and says, Do you want it good? Or do you want to Tuesday? We'll deliver this show in June. In June?! I've (pledged?) March and there is no June. June is summertime. There's no Season in June! I fire Barbara Avedon and we begin coming up with scripts. And uh, they're pretty good. There's a couple of scenes that I'm very proud of. We did a show where Lacey talks to Harvey about an abortion. An abortion she had. And he should (garbled). She tells the story even though Harvey's heard it, she's compelled to tell the story about what happened to her. In the end he says, Honey, it'll never be like that again. She says, told me (garbled) exactly (sound drops).

Wow.

And it's chilling! It was chilling when we did it, and it's chilling today. It's sexual harassment in the workplace. We did a woman's right to get an abortion. We did wife battering, and all those things.

Breast Cancer, rape, alcoholism. You were talking about these issues in 1984. 1982.

And unfortunately, are still issues today.

Absolutely.

Didn't solve any of it. We sure expressed them. Women loved us!

You cast Meg Foster as a new Cagney.

A fabulous actress.

Yes, yes. My first choice. She was the first one to come in. And I said that's her.

I thought so. And she was real. I love her verisimilitude. I went in with five other actresses, who auditioned for that, read for the Network. Harvey Shepherd says, Which one do you like? I said ah Meg Foster. He says okay, Meg Foster's it. I was, it felt good. The next day, Harvey Shepherd called me up. Cold feet. He's gotten a call from Susan Clark's agent. Susan Clark's a Television Star, not in series. She does only classy movies. Okay. She might be, end up playing this. So I'm arguing my choice. I was just like, just meet her. She won't read, which is admittedly a disadvantage, but meet her. So I'll do better than meet her. I'll go to her home, and I'll take Tyne Daly with me. Then Tyne will meet her too, see how the chemistry (sound drops). I had had Tyne meet the other six women. So without calling too much attention to it, I sort of position the room. Tyne and Susan were sitting together. I can watch 'em while I'm talking to her husband. Her husband is a former All-American football player. I gave his first job to him, as an actor, on Daniel Boone.

Nice.

We have things to talk about.

Yeah.

And so we're having a (garbled) while I'm watching. Susan Clark is a pure Actress. And the two women were getting along great. They could talk about the theater, they could talk about careers that were really, they had a lot in common. The next day, I go into Harvey office, and I said what I just said to you. She's substantial. She's substantive. She's real. He says, Oh, great. I said, (there's) only really a couple of problems. What's that? he says. I said, we have to rename the Series, and we have to set it in Kansas, instead of New York. What are you talking about? I said Harvey, they're sisters. It's Lacey & Lacey! There's no contrast. She's never going to be street. She's never going to be urban. She's a country girl. I'll make that show if you want, but it's not to show you bought. And he calls up his Head of Casting. Jean, I'm having a discussion with Barney Rosenzweig. I wanna know how you would vote. You want his choice Meg Foster? Or my choice Susan Clark? He guesses Meg Foster. Then he says, okay! Your cast. That's how Meg Foster (sound drops). Now we start making the show. All right? We got nice Directors. Again, tough to get the best Directors because the best ones are on shows with a 22 show order. But Directors you can hire more on a one on one basis. So we're making shows and I think they're pretty good. Harvey Shepherd is guaranteeing us a hit, because he's gonna put us on after Magnum PI, at nine o'clock at night. Ahead of Magnum... (what) was I saying... was it ahead of? No it...

I think it's behind. After.

Behind. Behind Magnum PI?

Behind them, eight o'clock. Nine o'clock.

Maybe it was the lead in. Okay. So we got a lead in, of the biggest success on CBS. A show the does a 34-35 share every week. We're coming off a movie, with a 48 each. All of Madison Avenue is writing about, this is a hit, guaranteed hit show. Expectation level is phenomenal. Easy to be a 30 to 40 share. We go on the air, and we get (garbled) a 38 Share and promptly plummet to a 22 share. A movement of seismic proportions. It had to be an aberration. It meant the power of us had gone out in six meals and sittings in certain homes, and they just were disconnected. Something bad happen. Nobody panicked. Next week, same thing. And the same result, inherit a 38 share on to a 24 share (garbled). Harvey Shepherd has me on the phone. He says, You are canceled! And I said, I understand. I said, What are you putting on in place (sound drops)? He says, Oh we got a show we canceled earlier.

Another canceled show.

Another canceled show. Two male cops. I forget their names.

Two male detectives. Simon & Simon.

Simon & Simon. Interestingly enough, proves a point. Simon & Simon was a failure, Tuesday nights at nine o'clock and a hit Wednesday night at 10 o'clock. What does that tell you? Time slot means something. Audience flow means something. I call back Harvey Shepard. It's hard. We made a mistake. This is not a show to follow Magnum PI. This is not a show for teenagers. I tell him it's a show for adult women. (garbled) I said, we are a 10 o'clock show. We should be on a (garbled) and not on after these (garbled) cop shows. We're not lights and sirens. We're doin' somptn' else. He says, Barney your cancelled. And I said, Harvey, don't you guys have research? What research? Of course, my wife works at ABC. I said, ABC has research! Don't you guys have research? It's a show for women and adult women. So, I'm making this up. Not true. I'm making it up.

But it was true.

It turns out. It wasn't true at that time. But anyway. I said, Look, give me two shows. Gimme two shows, and I'll come up with a campaign that says Cagney & Lacey are back-to-back. I'll send it all over the country. I'll spend $25,000 of my own money. He says, Save your money! I said Harvey... He says, Why are we discussing this? I said, we're not discussing it. We're having an argument. I want something you won't give it to me. He says, I'm not gonna give you two shows. I said, Okay, I'll take one. I'm not giving you Sunday night. I said, I'll take Monday night. Do it between, during re-runs. I can't hurt you. You'll win this (sound drop) nobody's watching. Okay, he says, Monday night, in the middle of a dead (sound drops). No sweeps. No nothing going on. Nobody cares. I get a 35 Share. Harvey Shepherd calls me in. Though there are naysayers at this Network who say, you did this against reruns. You did this during a dead period. I'm not gonna to say that to you. You took on a challenge. And you pulled it off. Now, I'm gona to go back to New York, and propose that we make this. Have this on the Fall schedule. He said uh, I need some stuff. I said what do you need? He said, I said you need a list of writers? (sound drops). I trust you to make a good show. He said she's not (garbled). I don't think the chemistry with the two women is working. Worked with Loretta Swit. It doesn't work (sound drops). They're too similar. They're too street. CBS in New York said they were too butch. Some executive in New York. called them d&k*s.

Wow.

That was pleasant.

Did you agree with him?

No. I didn't. I said look, I'll change her hair. I'll dye it blonde. He says Barney, I want it re-cast. So, I agree. You take a six-show order. The difference is, between a 13-show order and 6 show order is substantial. And add, you know, the cost of toilet paper gets amortized... divided by 6 instead of by 13. Toilet paper costs a lot more money per episode. Now everything costs more money. A show, the most expensive item on a budget, is not the Actor. It's not the Director. It's the anamort account, amortization account. That's the rent. It's the toilet paper. It's the electricity. That's the cost of gasoline, the cost of doing business. That's the most expensive single. You can divide that item by a higher number, each episode becomes cheaper. So, I agreed to the 6, and that's how we went.

So you came back. But then they said, you got 22 in your next Season?

Well, I agreed to 6. But he gave me an order, for in the Fall, for 13. A 13-show order for the Fall, contingent upon the re-casting of Meg Foster. I said thank you. I said they'll never tell you what's on the schedule. They gotta announce that officially in a couple of days. I asked one question. I said, is House Calls on the schedule?

And why? Why were you interested in House Calls?

House Calls starred an actress, by the name of Sharon Gless, who I had offered the part, twice before, and had never accepted because she was never available. She was either in a Series or under contract to Universal. I knew Monique James was the Head of Talent at Universal, there. We had talked on the phone many times. I had never met her. We were chatting. I was talking about, it's too bad she's in House Calls. She said, Well, it is true. But boy, when House Calls is over, she's no longer under contract. I'm leaving Universal with her. I'm going to become her manager and she's gona be in it. Well, I knew that, this information. I didn't think much of it, but I knew it. When I got the order, I asked about House Calls. She said No, I can't talk anymore about it. I then called my mother. I called my wife. She went back on the plane. The Head of CBS in the West Coast, the fella on the plane, sitting near her. And he says, she said to him, What's going on? She says Cagney & Lacey made the schedule. So, I knew that, you should have asked me. (chuckles)

Like he was gona tell her. So then, I called Ronnie Meyer who was then CAA, and head of, he was the Agent for Sharon Gless. And I said, Ronnie I'm calling to inquire about the availability of Sharon Gless to play the title role in the Television Series, Cagney & Lacey. 13 show order for the Fall on CBS. He says, She’s not available. She's doing House Calls. I said, you can bet me she's doing House Calls. That show has been canceled!

Laughs

That's a, that's a favorite moment for a Producer, to have a piece of information that no one else has. (Guffaw)

Yeah. For once in my life, I knew something Ronnie Meyer didn't know months before. At any rate, I uh, that began a long period of very, very serious, difficult troubled, come to me, go from me, painful times. Finally got it done.

Laughs

And what an amazing show! Two women, basically for another five Seasons. Six seasons? So, 125 episodes?

125 episodes. They call it Seven Seasons because they they, they, the way they futz around with it. But it was really six years.

Six years.

It was really Five Seasons with Sharon Gless. 119 episodes with Sharon.

Winning 14 Emmys.

Those five, plus the one with uh... Oh yeah. (sound drops) Nobody ever won an award for Best Actress, except Tyne Daly and Sharon Gless. When the show was over, actresses all over Hollywood.

My time. (guffaw)

Sharon Johnson
Laughs

You know, the star of uh, a couple of stories. When Helen Mirren won the Emmy for Prime Suspect. She went on the stage held her Emmy aloft, and her first words... Thank you Cagney & Lacey. When Sharon met her for the first time in a theater in New York, Ms Mirren got down on our hands and knees.

The star of...

Rizzoli & Isles?

Rizzoli & Isles, Thank you. The gal who played Rizzoli, came up to Sharon at Musso and Frank's, unannounced. And said, You paved the roads on which I walk. It was serious stuff. It did pretty good. Pretty good. Very proud of it. It made me well. Not so much financially, although it (sound drops). It made me well, emotionally. I had been through before that, so many hard times. You heard all my triumphs. All those stories I've told you about USC, MGM and and Daniel Boone. Those are, that's my greatest hits. Then, came a period of darkness. Cast out in the desert. At the point, literally, where I was gonna flip a coin, whether I was gona (be a) bartender, or a taxi driver. I would never go back to Press Agent. I knew that. I couldn't. It wouldn't do. And my career was basically over. I had been maligned. I (was) cheated. I had, had been hurt badly. I still have some of the scar tissue. But I figure I'm even in this thing. And I worry about that because, I know people who are smarter than I am, more talent than I have, and worked every bit as hard as I did, who never had a Cagney & Lacey. And I don't know what happens to them. I don't know how they sleep at night. It's a tough business. It is a brutal business. And uh, it ain't for sissies.

They tried to cancel you again. Right?

Oh, many. Yep that's true

You were always on the chopping block for some reason.

We never, we never were... Nobody ever said, You're a hit. You know, until very, the very end. We went on the air, and we did 13 episodes. So, we're good. Harvey Shepherd loved them. We did well. We were good counterprogramming to Football. We did fine. Harvey Shepherd took me to lunch and said, Barney, keep this up. Get it, if you get anything above a 26 share, you're golden for the next year. A 26-share seemed doable. We were getting 28s, 30s. Football went off the air and, in its place, ABC came on with Ann Margaret, giving away her children from her death bed. The Thorn Birds

The Thorn Birds.

Heavy duty stuff...

Big pictures. The audience for Cagney & Lacey was not only adult women, they were upwardly mobile, intelligent, college educated, free thinkers. They figured it out. You can watch Cagney & Lacey in re-runs during the summer. I want to see The Thornbirds tonight. And our ratings plummeted. And we were canceled. Not abruptly like we were once before. Harvey Shepherd called me up, very nice. He says, Barney, this is the most painful phone call I've ever had to make because I love the show. You know, I love the show. And I uh, he says, you did a great job. He was very sincere. He said he didn't think Cag, the show could be made any better that I made it. And to please know how grateful he was, but that, it was business. And he had to cancel. I took it well. I thought. I went to see Rick Rosenbloom and tell him. Called my mother. I called Tyne Daly. Called my wife. Couldn't reach Sharon. She's on location, in a movie with (garbled). I went back to the hotel, and somebody came up to me and said, Ah, I hear you got canceled. Sorry to hear it... My God. Other people knew. I thought I was in (sound drops), so painful. I had to distract myself. I went to the Theater. I went to see Nine which was the musical version of Fellini's 8 1/2. A story about a tortured filmmaker. Why I picked that show (Chuckles), I do not know. I couldn't stand it. I sat there... and by the way, it's a wonderful show. I found out later when I saw the movie. But that night? Forget about it! I walked out of the theater, sick. Went to Frankie and Johnny's. Went upstairs to the bar and started hitting the Martinis. And finally, on the pay phone through the bar, got a hold of Sharon Gless. And the two of us got drunk over the phone together, as we commiserate. And when I came back to LA, my assistant brought in a box, small thing. 15, 20, 20 maybe two dozen letters. Not, not even two dozen letters. And they were interesting, because they weren't written in Crayon. You know? (garbled) please send me your picture. You know? They were, these were little stiff stationery, well written... many of them typed... letters, thanking me for the show. Saying how excited they were to have the show on the air. How wonderful it was. What it meant to them. It was clearly letters that had been written and sent before the cancellation. So, I took the time and I wrote each of these people individually, and I thanked them for their support. And I thanked them for their good wishes. Unfortunately, it's not in my control, the show was canceled. There weren't enough of them. And they sent these letters off. And shortly thereafter, within a day maybe two, the guy came in from CBS with a large box. (Sound drops) each box I forget that. In a large box, with over 1000, I reached in arbitrary, and picked up a couple. These too, good stationary, typewritten, intelligent people. No Crayola. But these people were pissed off because the showed had been canceled. They'd written CBS. CBS' policy is to send it to the Producer. So I got 'em. So, what am I gonna do? I can't write all of them. Otherwise (sound drops) I would have spent the rest of my life writing letters. So, I composed a form letter, thanking them for their support. Tried our best. Took a good shot. Please keep watching television. Keep demanding good stuff. It will happen. And then I got a mischievous moment, which I do every now and then. Gotta be careful when I'm writing because I start getting clever. You know, cute. I can't help myself. And I said something to the effect, if you're still upset with all this after reading my letter... And I apologize for it being a form letter... So many but. So, if you're still upset, my strong suggestion is, don't write the Network. They don't read their mail. Write to the New York Times. Write to the Los Angeles Times. Write to your local newspaper. The theory being, they may not read their mail, but they do read the newspaper. And off they went. Orion would not give me the money... Filmways has now become Orion... It would not give me the money for stamps. We had 40 or 50 stamps in house. I bought the rest of the stamps. It was hundreds of dollars. It was a whole lot of 'em. Within weeks with, the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times, came out with big stories about these canceled cops. (McDonald(?)) who was the TV Editor for The New York Times said, This is clearly orchestrated by Producer Barney Rosenzweig. But it doesn't matter. These people still had to write more than one letter.

Big hit...

Chuckles

It's a grassroots movement. It's authentic. Calls, I started getting from Oregon, from everywhere, Michigan, everywhere. All over the country. Eventually, Harvey Shepherd referred to it, it as an avalanche of mail. People were calling me up. What are you going to do about this? What is CBS? I said, CBS isn't gonna do anything about this. They don't change their minds. It never happens. Never has happened. I'm now on a dubbing stage, dubbing a Movie of the Week that I made, while all this was going on. I don't have multiple lines. I got one phone line while I'm working. My wife is at the beach. I go down on weekends or nights when I'm done at work. At one point I'm standing out in front of my house. There's a threat of a high tide at my house I've rented, and I'm (sound drops) putting up sandbags. And a reporter comes along from USA Today, sees me doing this. I looked pretty terrible. I got a cigar in my mouth, and a Panama Hat on. And I'm putting 'em around, and I said, We could survive anything but a direct hit. And they, they find out who I was, they put me on the front page of USA Today, color picture. And they come out CBS Canceled Cops, Number One. It got to be the highest rated show in the Summer against Baseball. I guess with proper counter programing. Nobody has seen the original shows. These were all, these were re-runs, but nobody had seen them before. We're doing great. We get to number 10, Number 9, 8... then number 1. CBS calls me up... they say, We're nominated for some Emmys... while all this was going on. And I go in to pitch Harvey Shepherd. And I decide, I got nothing to pitch. What am I gona say? They're never gona buy the show again. I'll save my ammunition for another day. I'll just go in and say, Hello. Want to thank you for (sound drops) experience. And a happy Rosh Hashanah! It's almost the Jewish Holiday. And he says, It's pretty crazy, what's happening. Isn't it? This avalanche of mail? I said yeah. He says uh, What do you think the chances are of bringing it back? I say, Harvey! Look what you're asking me?

He said, Can you put it back together for me? Harvey's boss calls me and says, I have this vision. We're gona win the Emmy. And when you get up there to win the Emmy, hold the Emmy aloft, and you announce a comeback on CBS. I say, But it's all very well and good. I appreciate the sentiment. I hope I win the Emmy. But let me tell you, it ain't gona get done that fast. I have fired everybody. The sets have been dismantled. I have no contract with Sharon Gless or Tyne Daly anymore. You think they're gonna be difficult to negotiate with? It's gonna take a while. It'll get done, but it's gonna take a while. And sure enough it did take a long while. And they, with what Orion, in its typical clumsy, unsophisticated fashion, shot their bolt the first offer. When the women countered, they had nothing left to give.

Laughs

Chuckles

Ultimately, it came together and made the show. Then we made it for 13 episodes, and um, did well. But always in increments. Seven shows, 13 shows. No one ever said 22. Go, go with god. Have a good time. You know? Knock yourself out. Until the last two years, the last, by the last two years I could (garbled). It was a very, very happy period. Very happy. Uh, complicated by my personal issues, personal problems. With success, always comes something. There's always some problem. I had an affair. It's with my Leading Lady. Probably one of the dumbest things anybody could ever do. Especially in a two woman show. And I was married. And married to a, not only very powerful woman in business, but a very popular woman. And my one-time partner in business. Complicated. So that kind of sullied, or colored, the last 2 seasons, but otherwise it was absolute heaven.

All right, so we're going to take a little break and come back and a few more questions. I'm so excited, but we are gona take a little break. We'll be right back.

_____________________ Commercial Break 27:39. _____________________

Welcome back! We're gonna dive right back into this interview because we still have so much to talk about.

There you go!

Anyway, we finished the show and uh, went out winners. And about 31 years later, I'm still married to my Star and very happily so. And uh, life goes on.

What an incredible journey!

Fantastic!

It was that. We never gotta chance to talk about Rosie O'Neil.

I noticed in the Pilot episode of Rosie O'Neil, I just want to point out, that the Pilot episode of Rosie O'Neil is about a young homeless woman that's like 18 or 17 or 18. She's accused of murdering her baby. And it struck me as we have discussed about Cagney & Lacey, how timely that is today. And how many women right now have been facing that, particularly under the new laws that are being passed.

Right.

Because people don't want women to have abortions. And people wana criminalize childbirth and women's bodies. So it was, it was really struck me, kind of re-looking at that show. And again, the commitment to create a strong female character who's driving the story because that's one of the criteria that we have. Like, what is a female driven show? And it's literally, women are driving the story. Women are telling the story. And both Cagney & Lacey and the Trials of Rosie O'Neil, fit that so well. And I was also struck in both shows, how often you have scenes that are all women. And it's so shocking, like, not just Cagney. & Lacey, obviously talking to themselves and each other in in, you know, the locker room, or on the case, but literally the judge and the client and the lawyer, and the accused, and that was...

We had a policy...

... that was so shocking. It's shocking, now! You don't see that.

We had a policy, all the writers were aware of, people of power wherever possible, be played by women. When we did the Cancer episode, and I said, No. I, I want a man to play the role. This is important information we're giving to women about their options, as to mastectomy or lumpectomy or what to do. I want her to have a shlumpy looking guy, you'd say, yeah yeah, my doctor's like that or even better looking than that doctor. So that would encourage women, or not discourage them from seeing their physician. So, we're, yeah, we did, we were very aware, all the time. I did not write scripts. I wrote a couple of 'em. That wasn't my job. My job was to hone them, to make sure we were on message. Quality control, not just quality control of production. It wasn't that I always made the right decisions. I didn't have to make the right decisions. I had a crew of a hundred twenty-five (sound drops) committed to make whatever decision I made, work. So, if I say we go that way... Shorter that way? Somebody might point it out to me. But if I say we're going that way, we're gonna go that way. And they'll make it work. It'll look good. What I did, my particular (sound drops), was at each scene, each piece of material, make sure we were on message. And the example I used to like to tell, I was in New York for some promotion, on the phone in my hotel room, talking to the writing staff. And I'm looking for something to write on. Keep a note. And I pulled out a piece of (sound drops) the drawer, and there's a printed-out Laundry List for the hotel. And I start to use that, use the back of that. And I look at it and say, Hey! Listen to this. You know something that costs 89 cents, to have a man's shirt pressed? And it's $2.40 for a woman? What the he**'s that about? I was reading enough literature. I was paying enough attention. I was in feminist circles. I would go to New York, and (garbled) and I would date, not sexually. I would escort her somewhere. I mean, she'd introduce me, when I was in Washington DC. She was taking me around to the Senate, introducing me to people. We weren't friends. We were business associates. And so, I, that's the world I lived in. That's the world I traveled in, that’s the world I became embroiled in. And I pushed to translate all that stuff into the material. And sometimes the actors didn't get it. I had to explain it. I have, one of my favorite stories is... We're doing a show about the tastelessness of sexual humor in the workplace. And you could tell me, what the crime story is (sound drops). Now, that's not what it was about. So Cagney & Lacey are on a case about date rape, and they come bursting through the doorway, arguing with each other on their way to their desk. Cagney thinks it's social work, and Lacey thinks it's what they should be doing. And Cagney says, if we were, if we were guys, they wouldn't assign us this case. And as they're arguing about it, the men come gathering around, and they say um, Hey, you know, it's a funny thing. Date rape, you know. Her lips tell you, no no, but there's yes, yes in her eyes. How's a guy supposed to know? And Samuels, the Lieutenant, their boss says, You know what Ellen's favorite movie is? This is funny. Gone With the Wind. So how come when Rhett Butler, carries Scarlett O'Hara upstairs, that's Romance? When another guy does it...And Lacey looks at him and says, I beg your pardon Lieutenant, but if you don't know the difference between rape and romance, we have a serious problem. And she walks away, and Harv, um, Harvey the Desk Sargent says, Oooo. Her time of the month? Or what? A Properly tasteless joke. (garbled) Sharon Gless, who is relatively new to the series at that time says, I want to say something. The guy just insulted my partner. I'm John Wayne. I want to say something. The Director says, Get me a writer down here. The writer is being summoned and knows he or she is in trouble. The Leading Lady wants a line o' dialogue. And it better be a good one. So, you're prepared to serve. That's what writers do on shows. The difference is Cagney & Lacey. I'm there. And I sidle up to Sharon, who I don't know that well. It's like Episode 13. Ok? And I say, Do you know what Cagney wants, more than anything else in the world? Sharon says, No. What does she want? I say, She wants to be one of the boys. She wants to be accepted by everybody here. That's why Cagney not only doesn't say anything, but I'm gonna go to a Close Up of you, saying nothing. And Sharon's eyes lit up. She's really a cous? Isn't she? And I said, Well, let’s say she's flawed. And that was a seminal moment in the series. From then on, Sharon Gless was in my office every week. Give me another flaw. Give me another problem she's got. Now that doesn't happen on a show where the Producer doesn't have power. So, I said, I said those things to Sharon Gless and if she looked at the show, or her manager looked at the show the following week, or two weeks later, and that Close Up wasn't there, I'm dead meat. Now I have control of the editing. That Close Up was there. And I know the show better than anybody else. And I'm not afraid to argue and I... Nobody could say to me, Well, you're defending you're material. I didn't write it. Somebody else wrote it. I'm defending it 'cause it's good. And I don't worry about the fact that everybody was shut down while (sound drops). I know what it costs. It's not that bad. Whereas the writers were panicking. My god, they're shut down. I don't know what it costs, but it's not good. I know (sound drops). Big difference. What you have today in Television, there's a lot of hyphens(?). And there's a lot of good things to be said for that. But they can never say, they can never defend the material as if they didn't write it. And there's less objectivity. And there's a homogeneity to it, that I like, not to see in a show. I like (sound drops) a little bit more eclectic voices. I want to hear that writer who's had a terrible experience in his life, that only he knows about. Or she knows. And they come in, and they tell me that story. And I say, Let's make that a Cagney & Lacey. That's powerful.

Yeah, it's not a freelance game anymore at all. Yeah.

I can tell you, I can tell you that, total freedom is not all it's cracked up to be. I had a show, of Cagney & Lacey, we did an episode about an abortion clinic being bombed. And uh, interesting complications. Lacey was visibly pregnant herself but was pro-abortion. Cagney was pro-abortion but Catholic. And her father's giving her a bad time of it. He says, You know, there's a lot of Irish up top. Her bosses are Irish (sound drops) cops. You better watch what you say about this. And he says, Fine talk for someone who wanted to be a nun. Some good stuff like that. I get three pages of single space memo from Broadcast Standards. Gilbert Steele. I called him stainless steel. All these thou shalt nots. And you can't have both Cagney & Lacey be pro-abortion. Stainless, gather your forces. Bring me every executive you have in this deal, that you wana bring. I'm coming in, as soon as you can put 'em together. And we have one meeting on this subject, and one meeting only. I will tell you right now, neither Cagney or Lacey ever will be anything but pro-choice. They are not going to defy 70% of women in America. Now, that's all making me a hero. Let me tell you the bad parts. I walked into the meeting. The Head of Broadcasting, Gilbert Steele's boss by three degrees, walked up to me with a cup of coffee, handed it to me and said Barney, understand something. You are among fans. Tell me when it's a non-negotiable deal. The air went out of my balloon. I was steeled for a fight. And there was no fight. Outta that kind of friction, outta that kind of confrontation, often comes very, very good stuff. And in this case, it didn't happen. And that episode is one of our weakest episodes. It has nice stuff in it. All those things I told you about. The highlights. But it's not strong enough. It's not good enough. It's not powerful, and that's my fault. And because I didn't have to beat anybody up. (Guffaw)

Laughs

You like to fight. We, we've learned that.

The last, the last year or two. That's, if anything, that's what show suffer from. I said I was, I cheated my way out of paper bags. It was harder to make really exciting shows then.

And Rosie was a bit like that. I had cart blanche on Rosie. So it didn't, it lacks, I think there's probably, it lacks a little bit of that chemical fiery thing. But it's a good show. I think I mentioned to you before we went on the air, I've been trying for 25 years to get Rosie back on DVD, or on cable. It's now on Amazon. And it's out on DVD finally. So, I'm watching it on Amazon. Sharon Gless, my wife, never ever ever watches herself. I got her to watch the two-parter about alcoholism, because we had a screening and she had to attend it. To my knowledge, the only two episodes of Cagney & Lacey she ever saw. Those (sound drops) and I'm running the show all by myself. And she hears this voice, she recognizes. And she comes tiptoeing in and sticking her head around the (sound drops) and she comes up to me and says, well I was really thin. (chuckles) And comes in and sits down, and watches all 16 episodes of the first season, actually in one sitting. And we can both tell you, it's a good show. I recommend it to your viewers. Now it's, I'm very proud of it. I'm very very proud. And uh, I miss it. The reality is, I'm proud of most (sound drops) The other times I did some favors that I should never have done. I should never be a team player. That's that's, that's not who I am. My Father-in -Law, Aaron Rosenberg was a team player. He was a running guard for the University of Southern California. And he always was taking it for the team. He'd fill up a soundstage for a picture that wasn't ready, because Dick Zannuck needed a stage filled up. Or he would show, he'd edit the picture too fast. And get it out, put an end (sound drops). If the pictures were bad, he got blamed. Always said, Oh well. He was doing us a favor. Nobody remembered that. So, I made that mistake a couple of times, but not often. I try to avoid that.

Yeah.

I know it's getting late for you. And I really appreciate you taking this time to talk with us.

Listen, I'm talking about my favorite subject.

I know. We could talk all day and all night.

Yeah.

Sharon, I think we have to do three questions. And then we'll talk about where people can find you online after that. All right. So these are three questions we give to guests on our shows. So, the first one is, what is the 80s Ladies TV show, not of your own creation, that resonated with you in the 80s. And so this is hard.

Moonlighting.

Oh, Moonlighting. You're fast Oh my god. Right out of the gate.

Loved Moonlighting.

All right. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Okay.

All right.

So next, can you name any of your favorite current 21st century female driven Television shows? Or modern-day TV Ladies?

Sure. Well, I'll try, this this is not necessarily in order, but it's pretty close to being in order. Dead to Me, Hacks, Orphan Black. (garbled).

Those are good.

You gotta understand, I also almost always continue to watch female driven shows. My first choice. I did not like the Mare Winningham one, whatever that one was. It didn't like it because, not because of her. Although I, I had certain objections. That was, I didn't like it because it's such an ugly view of America. If that's who America is, you know, Ronald Regan, uh Donald Trump. So dark and pessimistic, and lacked any redeeming values (sound drops) at all.

Those are good ones...

I named three.

You named three. That's good. That's a good amount. I, Yeah. Um, and I liked those. They're all very, they're all very different too.

Dead to Me is wonderful.

Yeah.

I mean that gal, Christina Applegate or something. Is that her name?

Christina Applegate?

Yeah.

Oh, my goodness.

What a, what a performance. What a performer.

I love her.

And Jean Smart?

You gotta love her. Nobody's better than Jean Smart in what she does.

Well, speaking of 80s TV Ladies, I'm not sure that anybody like us who watched Designing Women back in, when it was airing...

Oh, sure. Absolutely.

...would've thought that she possibly would have been the person. I mean, they were all good. But you know.

And by the way, I should have said Designing Women. I said Hacks because, first of all, I'm very good friends with Linda Bloodworth and her husband.

Alright, we want to have her on the show. So you might have to hook us up.

She's fabulous. She is fabulous. I also could have mentioned my own show (sound drops). You said I couldn't mention my own show...

I said, you can't mention your own shows....

... can't mention your own shows...

Alright.

Laughs

We have to do it for everybody. It's not just you. (laughs)

Ok, alright. What's the next question?

Last but not least, what's the most Action Hero or Television kind of moment that you've had in your life? I mean, you've had so many incredible moments. And actually I can, maybe this is sort of redundant because I can think of a couple of things, especially things related back to your dates at USC, that I guess might qualify. But is there something, that kind of, is at the top of your list? Of something that seems like looking back on it, is right out of a, an Action Movie or Action TV show?

Or even a drama? Even, like uh, you know, like Oh my god. This this is a scripted moment. You couldn't have scripted this moment better.

I think if I had to pick, I, I picture a few. Uh, along with Tony Barr, who was the uh, my programming executive at CBS, Cagney & Lacey. I was fortunate, in that Tony was an older man than I am, than I was. And uh, I think he was handed this job. He'd already produced, been a Producer. So he knew a little bit about the lingo. And I think he had taken this job at CBS as a step to retirement. So he wasn't after my job, wasn't out to make any bones. He wanted to make his point. And then I, he would listen to me, and some of the best spiels I ever gave, uh, to a Network Executive. Once, a picture that he fought me on, I won't go into the details because you're running late. But he fought me on it all the way. All the way in production, all the way editing. He would (sound drops), and I finally said to him, Look, order one less episode. Just won't make it, that's my solution. We won't make, instead of making 22, we'll make 21. (garbled) I don't wanna, You want me to make chocolate. I wanna make vanilla. I can't make it chocolate. Can't do it. So, he said Barney, we're not gona cut up, cut back an episode. Go ahead and make it your way. You'll learn from it and we'll talk next Season. Made the show. Screened it at CBS. The lights came on, and Tony Barr stood up and says, This is an Emmy Award winning show. Sharon Gless is fantastic. I was wrong. You were right. I said Tony, you realize you're giving me a loaded gun for next Season.

Laughs

He says, God help me, I know it. But you got it. So that was a pretty good bump.

That is a pretty good moment. That's a pretty great moment.

I guess nothing beats so, calling you up and saying, having a press conference, standing there on the dais with Harvey Shepherd and having him say essentially, We were wrong. And Mrs. Rosenzweig's little boy was right. That's as good as it gets. Listen, I've had a lot of 'em. Not enough of 'em, but I've had alot.

That is fantastic. Uh, okay, so people can find you at CagneyandLacey.com, through your, because your your blog is off of there, um, and your book is available off of there, and at Amazon.

I believe it, uh, Apple, too.

OK

The Cagney & Lacey site has been stagnant for a long time. We don't do anything to it. I don't have a webmaster. I don't know how to do that stuff. I write a blog. I send it to Sharon's best friend. She puts it on the site. But you can read it and it looks pristine, looks pretty. But uh, I love writing. I have a good time. I review television. I review theater, occasionally a movie. I don't see very many movies. And I write about my family and about stuff that's going on. And I think it's awfully good. And then I'm hoping to come up with a book again, but I don't know when that'll happen.

All right, and Cagney & Lacey can be streamed at Amazon and Apple TV. And Rosie, Trials of Rosie O’Neil can be streamed on Amazon.

On Amazon. You know, MGM owns the underlying rights to uh, Cagney & Lacey. And now that Amazon's been purchased, uh has purchased MGM. I would think, that's why we're suddenly on Amazon.

Cagney & Lacey can also be streamed on Roku TV.

OK.

And according to the internet, it can uh, Roku channel is also streaming the Trials of Rosie O'Neill. So...

Really.

...there you go. If you're a, if you have a Roku subscription...

I have an independent distributor doing that. They never send me money. They send me a little bit, now and then.. Not very often. Never enough.

Laughs

Never enough and not often enough.

Never enough.

Anyway, this has been such a pleasure. I hope we can have you back on the show at some point. And you have kicked off our dive into Cagney & Lacey so lovingly, and excitingly and with so many great stories, that we're really excited.

Well, I just apologize for sticking so long on the, on the early stuff. But it's very current in my mind because of the book I'm writing. And you asked a couple of questions that triggered that. So, I went for it.

I think that's great. And we'll happily send you the video and the audio.

Well, thank you. I'd love to have it. My theory is, you can't tell the story of King Arthur, unless you explain how he got Excalibur. So, I think your questions are good, to ask people how they got started, and how they got there. Because, you know, it seems like sort of a miracle, like it's coming out of nowhere. And all of us come from somewhere.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm curious because you talked about where there's one... this is personal and so if you don't want to say... But you talked about always calling your mom when something big happen.

Yeah. My mom was uh, my biggest fan. And uh, she liked to talk about the show when it was on. My mom was a strong woman, very smart. She was much smarter than my dad, much smarter than me. She had a fabulous vocabulary, she didn't use. She, she could do the New York Times crossword puzzle in ink, in minutes. But her vocab, she didn't use it in her vocabulary. Just for these games she liked to play. She never got to go to college. She's self-educated. She took care of a very, very psychologically damaged mother, who was in and out of institutions, all of my mother's life. (She had) electrical shock therapy. I think my mother by design, willed herself not to go crazy. She white knuckled the whole thing. She just, she knew she, she had to preserve her sanity. And that was her primary goal. And she, but she was, had troubles. Never anything that impacted me. Except here's the, here's the relationship. This is why I called. My mother didn't, I think I told you, my mother didn't go out. She didn't go anywhere. I'm the lead, the leading actor in the school play. I'm the Head Cheerleader in high school. I'm the Emcee of the Variety Show. My mother never saw this. So, when the evening was over, I would come home and perform the whole evening over again for my mother. So, she got to see the show.

That's marvelous.

That was sort of our relationship.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

My dad occasionally went. But my mother, my mother didn’t go out.

That's kind of beautiful.

I bought her, her very first store bought dress, many years later.

Wow, alright.

She wore it all the time. (Chuckles)

Well, I hope she was proud of you.

She was. My, my mom was uh, I was her favorite. And I was also the oldest, first grandson. I was the first boy. Privileged life in that sense. We were not, the wealth in our family. But um, there was a wealth of affection and love. I was a very loved kid.

That's, that's the most important thing. I find.

There's no question about it. No question about it. I'm very secure about it all. It's one of the reasons, I'm sure it's one of the reasons, I was as secure as I am. I'm very secure in my, who I am. I can't even think of something I'm insecure about. I'm sure there's something. But I don't even want to go there. But I I, it has to all come from, you know. Where did I get the guts to go in front of the USC crowd? Where does that come from?

You're the come from behind kid, though. I mean, I'm telling you, that's like, your sweet spot is, Oh, it's all falling apart? Let me step in. That's where I want to step right in and...

Well it's, it's an easy way to interpret it, now. At the time it didn't seem that...

... it didn't feel that way (laughs)...

... I didn't think about any of that. I was just treading water to survive. It was, so we'll talk about this more the next time.

OK, All right. Thank you so much...

Laughs

... Sounds good. Thank you.

My pleasure. Thank you. You guys are terrific to talk to.

Oh, thank you. And take care. Please.

Take care.

I will. Bye bye.

Hey, Susan, what time is it?

It's audio-ography time, Sharon.

Woohoo! First is, Cagney & Lacey… and Me, by Barney Rosenzweig. And, From Reverence to Rape: The Treatment of Women in the Movies, by Molly Haskell.

And for the Trials of Rosie O'Neil, you can find that streaming on Amazon and Roku. For now, as far as I know. Just a little information about that show. It was created by Beth Sullivan and Joe Cacaci, Produced by Barney Rosenzweig. It ran for two Seasons and 34 episodes on CBS from September 17, 1990, to May 30, 1992. It starred Sharon Gless, Dorian Harewood, Ron Rifkin, who I love, Georgann Johnson, Lisa Rieffel, and Robert Wagner. Ed Asner and David Rasche join the cast in Season Two. I was very excited about it. Oh, and in Season One, Episode 15, called Reunion, Tyne Daly guest stars along with Carole King, the singer songwriter who also wrote the theme song for the Trials of Rosie O'Neil, and Gretchen Corbett. I'm also gona shout out Weirding Way Media, which is run by two friends of ours. Rich has been on their shows many times. I've now been on one of the shows called, The Culture Cast and The Projection Booth. They're kind of movie review shows. And they've been around a long time. And I called them when I was starting this and said, Okay, what do I need to do? Like how, where do I start? How do I find, get a logo? And they both were incredibly helpful. And Chris in particular, basically kind of right at the moment we were like, We got to figure out where we're Hosting, basically, called me and said, Listen, would you want to come on and be part of a Network that Mike and I are going to start? Anyway. So, we were the first, not them Podcast on their Network, which is called Weirding Way. And so, you guys should check it out, because it's awesome. And please support us on patreon.com/80sTVLadies. You can get special content, and you get stickers. You get stickers!

Stickers!

They're super cute stickers, and we just started making them. I'm really excited.

Just a reminder, the privacy and civil rights of pregnant people and women are still at risk and outlawed in many areas of America. Laws have been enacted, that have stripped away the right to have a safe and legal abortion for millions of people in this country. Restricting access to comprehensive reproductive care, including abortion, threatens the health and independence of all Americans.

Please support your local healthcare providers and also call your local State and Federal Representatives to let them know you want abortion rights and equal access to healthcare for all. If you want or need help, please go to https://abortionfunds.org. And if you can, donate to help https://thepinkhousefund.com. All of these will be on our website. Ladies and gentlemen, be sure to tune in to our next episode where we have the amazing Tyne Daly. Six-time Emmy winner, one-time Tony winner, Tyne Daly. Yes, that Tyne Daly. We can't wait.

In the meantime, we hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. All of which will lead us forward toward being amazing Ladies of the 21st century.

Did I tell you that Tyne Daly is coming on our next episode, Sharon?

I know! Right?!!
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Episode 118: "Cagney & Lacey & Barney Rosenzweig, Part 2"

The Conversation

Our Audio-ography

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