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80s TV Ladies Theme Song 00:09.
80s TV Ladies, I’m so sexy and so pretty. 80s TV Ladies, I’m steppin out into the city. 80s TV Ladies, I been treated kind of sh#*ty. Working hard for the money in a man’s world. 80s TV Ladies!

Sharon Johnson 00:17
That's right, 80s TV Ladies is the podcast that looks at female driven TV shows from the 1980s, and the people who made them. I'm Sharon Johnson.

Susan Lambert Hatem 00:26
And I'm Susan Lambert Hatem. And we're your host for 80s TV Ladies today, that my the, I don't know why today. Is it gonna be a different day sometime? Well, sometime.

(laughs) We were yesterday, but we're not tomorrow... but today we are!

Today we are! We're gonna just keep going. Happy November, everyone. I am wishing you a very good day. Stay hopeful. Keep going. Keep lifting your voices out there.

As Michelle Obama says, 'No country can ever truly flourish if it stifles the potential of its women and deprives itself of the contributions of half its citizens.'

So onward! Let's celebrate and investigate some very cool women today. I'm so happy to say we now have Part Two of our interview with Robin Bernheim, Writer and Story Editor of Remington Steele the mystery detective show from the 80s. This one is so much fun.

TV writer and producer Robin Bernheim got her start writing on Remington Steele and has worked on some of the most beloved and iconic TV shows of modern times.

What a career she's had. Sharon. I mean, it's really incredibly impressive, from Remington Steele to Quantum Leap, the first one, to two, two Star Trek shows, two Hallmarks, When Calls the Heart which ran for like 9/10 Seasons, something crazy, and a massive Franchise for Netflix, The Princess Switch, starring Vanessa Hudgens. Now, in our last Episode, we had a fantastic act-out for you. We quit you on a cliffhanger.

We just left you out there blowing in the wind not knowing the answer to a very important Remington Steele question.

But let's take you back.(sound of needle scratching a record album) So I want to go back real quick to the times when when Stephanie and Pierce Brosnan weren't getting alone. There's stories of them not getting along. There's stories of them getting along. They speak very highly of each other right now. So, what was going on? In your perspective?

Robin Bernheim 02:17
I know, sometimes I read it and and I think it's just crazy. I read that Doris said they wouldn't even talk. I don't remember that. I was around a lot of the time. I don't remember that it was ever like That! There were times where they didn't get along. That they weren't happy. You know what it was really over the script, a lot of the times. It was how the scripts were balanced. Who got to drive the car in round numbers. So I think it really came from that. And they were both young. And when Stephanie came to the project, Stephanie was the name talent. Nobody knew Pierce, but the show was called Remington Steele. So Pierce naturally was going to be the Star. And so I don't even think that the problems, I know Stephanie's you know, from Stephanie's perspective, more than I can speak to Pierce's obviously, because I spent time with Stephanie. Pierce, by the way, was always lovely to me. In those days, Stephanie and I called each other Boo, we still do. It was before Boo was a thing you know. We just, that was our nickname for each other. So I have memories of Pierce on the set coming up to me and going 'Hello, Boo!' you know. So I only have positive memories of Pierce. And as you know, and as you said, they're they're good friends today. And they honor that friendship. So there were some bumps. But I think almost any show, there's bumps. I, Stephanie would call, I mean, I remember being in my parents house in Northern California and Stephanie called because she was very upset. Again, I think it was more how the material was balanced than that she had a problem with him. And I remember saying to her, 'Well, thank God, he's such a good actor! You know, you could be stuck with somebody who's not good. He's good at what he does. And she'd always go yeah, yeah, he was. So there was respect. So I'm speaking from Stephanie's side, but it'd be interesting to see how she characterizes it. But that's from from what I saw. That's what it was about. They had respect for each other. There were little things that got you know, under their skin. They teased each other and all of that. So I think it was what you'd expect under a lot of stress and pressure. And remember Stephanie was single at the time and Pierce was married to Cassie at the time. And Stephanie and Pierce had all these you know, you know. There was a lot of the Push-Me-Pull-You kind of tension but they also had on-screen kisses and they obviously had to have passion. And I do remember, I mean here's a bit of a history for you. It was at the time that AIDS had just come on the scene. And the question was, could they even kiss? Was there a risk? You know, it was that that was insane too.

Wow. I, I, yeah, you wouldn't think of that, now. But then, but you, although for COVID, like they were putting Plexiglas up. Right?

I was gonna say, we sadly had, you know, to go back. But if, you have to think back to that! And people just didn't know what it was, and whether, you know, it was safe. But yeah, so I think that it was all just, you know, there were moments, but they came out of the work. It wasn't personal.

There was so much pressure, and there is so much pressure, even today, with TV shows that become sort of popular, and very beloved, immediately. And those characters became beloved. I know that like, I think it was Third Season when it was the most popular. But I think there's so many, I always feel for, like, TV Stars, probably more than my husband does. (guffaw) Because I'm like, they're under a lot of pressure, Honey. That's why they're freaking out. Right? You know, like um, because it's hard! It's hard to be ha, to be the lead of a TV show. There's a lot of pressure on you I think, as an actor.

Yeah

Especially when it happens so early in your career. When you haven't had the opportunity to get a lot of perspective on what it is, or how your life changes when you become that well known and that, that identified by a character. It's hard.

Remember, in those days, there were three, three Networks. So you had a third of the viewing audience watching you. Everybody knew who you were, you were Very famous, whereas now we have a much more fragmented niche market. You know, it's very hard to find a Star, except like music I think, where they're as well known as these people were in the 80s. They were so well known.

Yeah I mean, because because there were only three Networks, it was possible to know who and who was on what shows on the other Networks, at least for me. Because I followed those kinds of things. Even if you didn't watch the shows, you knew what shows are on you knew who were on those shows. It was very, it was much easier to keep track of all that since there was much less content. So yeah, it's it's tough, it's tough. Hopefully, they they, you know, mature and, and quickly understand that, yeah, I got a job to do.

But I do want to say, what's interesting is, I think there's a challenge built into the concept of the show. And we've talked about this before on the show, um. There's a huge, I'm a huge fan of this show, and of this type of show that doesn't really exist as much as it did in the 80s, in primetime television. The action comedy, you know, the comedy duo. The, you know, there's a lot of romance and will they won't they, that's always that's always popular. But this show was so interesting in that the saga sell of the show, is her running a detective agency, wanting to do a career that is very male oriented, and finds a solution to her problem of getting hired and, and does it. And that could be a show on its own. And when in theory, according to the things, it was the original concept for the show. It was just her with a pretend, you know, Remington Steele, doing these capers. And then they like, well, maybe that's not enough for a show, because everything has to be extra clever in television. So So then they add this extra clever beat, which is he shows up. But what's interesting is, it it then changes the dynamics of the show. So we often question whether these shows are feminist or not feminist looking back at them now. And so I, my question for you is, was Remington Steele, a feminist show? And by feminist, here, we here's how... Well how would you define feminist? I'm curious.

Ah, that's a tough question. Um, you know, and I don't want to give you a glib answer. I think that's probably, you know, there's a whole treatise that could be um, that could be done on what feminism is and feminism of the 80s. But I think you have to look at it through the lens of the 80s, and what was possible. Even when I listened to how you tell the story about, it was about a woman who just makes up a male boss. And then the Executives, the powers that be decided to, what would be fun, to actually see that guy. Well, that in and of itself, I am certain... though I wasn't in the room... came from at the time, they didn't believe a woman could carry a show. I mean, Dr. Quinn came up after that, but that that was like the first I think. There were very few single female lead shows. Because in in my working career it was Xena Warrior Princess was was groundbreaking because it was an action hero who was a woman, who didn't need a man. So I think Remington Steele was about as feminist as you could get at that time. And you guys are our students at this. So please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking of Moonlighting and Hart to Hart. Those were the big shows that had women in them. Hill Street Blues had some female characters. But it was, I mean, Laura Holt being a woman who's so capable, that that she, but held down by society. So she has to invent a boss because they'll never credit her. I mean, yes, it's it's a concession to the patriarchy. Right?! It's a concession, but it's still acknowledges how bright she was. Oh, haha yes! And then there's this anecdote where Stephanie went and gave an interview to the San Jose Mercury News. And I was working in advertising, like I said, in Silicon Valley. And she goes, it's just like, my friend, she does all the work and her boss gets all the credit. And I'm going, Oh, no! I really hope George doesn't read that that article. Ha! But anyway. So I'd say yes, for its time, for its day, absolutely. And her character! It just was so important to see a woman who was more talented than a man. who was better at the job than the man was. So I say, Yes, it was groundbreaking, I think it was really important!

I feel it's definitely feminist for a variety of reasons, for all the reasons you mentioned. But also, because to me, feminism is about women being able to make the choices, to have the opportunity to choose how they want to live their lives. And she and Laura Holt made a decision, this is what she wanted to do. And also was very much the decision maker in their relationship with Remington Steele. She decided that she didn't want to have a romantic relationship with him because she didn't trust him. Because she didn't know enough about him. And she was very clear about that. In fact, in the First Season, one of the very first episodes that aired, they have a very adult conversation about this. And it's something that I don't think I've heard in a similar way, in a television show, even you know, even in the last 10 years, in the television that I watch. And for it to happen in 1983? 84? is remarkable. And to me says all I need to know about whether or not this show is feminist, so.

And what's interesting, too, because it touches on on issues we have today is that that speech most likely was written by a man. D idn't have to be a woman to have written this speech. Which then gets into, you know, we get into all sorts of problems with as writers, or as performers ,that you have to be the person that you're writing for. And while I honor, you know, having authentic voices... Well, first of all, my question is, which one of us is actually flown on a spaceship?

Laughs

It shouldn't really matter that you have to do it or have to have lived it. But I would not want to be limited. I wouldn't want anyone to say to me, you can't write for an advent, you know, a male lead, a male action hero, because I have. And, and my success as, at it, seems to testify to the fact that I write it as well as as a man does. So I, you know, I think part of being a feminist is also acknowledging when there's a guy that that, you know, spoke the message that we wanted spoken um, as well as I could have written it. You know? So, I think that's important to acknowledge that Michael Gleason wasn't only Remington Steele, he was also Laura Holt. And the writers like John Sakmar, and Kerry Lenhart and John Wirth and all the people, and Jeff Melvoin, who were there, we're capturing that voice, um, pretty well. I mean, Stephanie would have her moments where she, you know, need to have them change something. But for the most part, they did very well.

Well, and I think it's a, so on the DVD special features where you're interviewed and Stephanie's interviewed, and Michael Gleason. And, they talk about how much Stephanie helped create that Laura Holt character, and they talk about the Fedora and and, and how much she got what the show was, was doing and where the tone of the show lived. And so that was great to sort of hear them credit a young female actor who, like potentially they could've said, we did it all! Like, they gave her credit. And it's so interesting that they did create this really iconic character. They wrote beautiful stuff for that character. And yet they also... in there's a commentary that's still staying with me, where they're like, Huh! They're watching it... Robert Butler and Michael Gleason are watching I think the the pilot, the, what became the pilot.... And they're like, Hmm, this show's a little bit about identity. We didn't realize it was about identity. Like he comes in, and then she sort of like disappears a little bit. And you're like, really?! Like you didn't even know what you were writing?! (laughing)

Laughs

It's the whole content of the show! (guffaw) But I, I think it, there's times where, as a creator, you you're just trying to be clever, and you're trying to be different. I think at the time, there was a lot of like, Oh, we're gonna be... we're gonna twist this for 80s television. Right? And so we're gonna put a Woman there. And, and yet, I think they did that character with way more interesting layers than than they even intended. But I think a lot of that was Stephanie. And and I think and, but it was them giving Stephanie the room to help build the layers of those characters. And stay true to that character. And I, I do in some of the interviews I've read from that time, she's talking about going into the Second Season like this, you know, I had to fight for my character to stay vital. Because it's so easy for it to become Remington Steele's story, and not Laura and Remington Steele. And, and her driving the cases and her driving the story. So that's for me, the show flip flops a little bit, as it did, where it is both feminist and the not feminist. Because it, because the dyn, who who is driving the story, is to me the female, what I consider feminists for the 80s. Is it female driven? And are the stories female driven? Feminism, as its whole is a lot more complicated. But I think for my purposes in this podcast as we're looking at these shows... Is this show female driven? Is what I'm sort of most interested in, just because those were the shows that I was like, I kind of leaned in on! And went, Oh! I could do that. That that, I identify with that, on some level.

You're making me remember an interesting moment when Stephanie got a script, I think it was John Wirth's script. And in it, Laura Holt had posed for some, let's say boudoir photography. But she was naked. And I remember she and I had, you know, probably a very intellectual discussion at that, you know, in the 80s about that. I just watched on Amazon, there's a, there's a thing on Hugh Hefner and Playboy. Which was very... I had to binge the whole thing in a day. Because it was history, but I had lived the history. So I never studied the history. So it was fascinating to me. So anyway, this was the 80s and she had posed for these naked pictures. And Stephanie and I had a discussion about it. And she felt strongly, as did I, that that objectifies women and that that was just sensational. So they (guffaw) let's just say they weren't too happy to get that phone call because she she did defend the character. And she felt that that wouldn't be something that Laura Holt would have done. So I think that what they did, because the script was finished, was they the, the backstory was... Her face had been photoshopped onto the pictures. (laughs) But that, these were the things that meant something at the time, you know, these were the issues of the day in terms of feminist issues. And so yes, her thoughts definitely had an impact on what you saw on the screen.

That's so funny that you bring up the the Hugh Hefner thing because we actually spoke with Martha Smith from Scarecrow and Mrs. King, who was a Playboy model, and worked with Hugh Hefner. And had unlike that, the women in those, in that documentary, in that series, she had a very good experience and helped launch her career. And she talked about that, but she also was coming from a different place. And she acknowledges like, my experience is not everybody else's experience. But it was, it was interesting, in light of this, women being photographed nude. Which was seen in a different light in the 80s, seen a different light in the 70s, in a different light now. And what that means and we still don't know what it means. Right?

Right, right. It it, um, it just is interesting to me as a professional woman in the 80s... not I mean, I knew all, in fact, I grew up not too far from where that Playboy Mansion is. You know, I knew that all existed. But when I look at it now and I see the objectification of women the way it was done then, and here I am trying to be taken seriously as a talent. Not as a talent on display like the person you interviewed, you, obviously it helped her acting career. But I'm behind the scenes, and they're objectifying women in that way. And I go Jesus, I am so lucky to have cut through that and to have been taken seriously. That's a lot of noise in that channel, when you're trying to simply being taken seriously for your talent, and your worth as a person. So yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it? When you look back.

It's so interesting. And and it's so interesting in Remington Steele to look at, at you know, Laura Holt clearly has sort of a sexual side. Clearly has a a, you know, she's dating, she's you know, that she and Pierce have this, you know, Will they? Won't they? And and why? And yet she's also gets to be a career woman. I love how mad she gets to be. Like, sometimes it it still struck me. I'm like, Wait. Oh she's so mad. Like, and I'm like, why am I? Like, guys get to be that mad! Like, it's it was so startling, in some ways in the 80s, to see her get angry, and not be punished for it. And not, and and it be legitimate. That was an interesting, when I watched the show again, I was like, Oh, I kind of don't remember that. And I kind of, but I remember the feeling of that.

Yes. Because in society again, behind the scenes when you're a business woman in the 80s, which I was not just in Hollywood, but in in Silicon Valley. Do you remember? I now, you you made me remember. When a man gets mad, he's strong. When a woman gets mad, she's bitchy. So I didn't really notice that about Remington and Laura, and how she, what Stephanie chose to do there. But isn't that great? I mean, there was always, there was always an emphasis. But I still, I still believe this today, when when you're doing Rom Com, and you have the Push Me Pull You, you do have to be likable. But that goes on both sides, both genders sides, the male or female. You got to make sure when you're playing that Cary Grant banter... because Cary Grant did it so effortlessly... that you're not unlikable. You have to be likable. So if you choose to be too angry, (laughs) Michael would sometimes say, Oh, God! They don't you know, you got to pull that back. But the fact that Stephanie was given leeway to have emotion like that, and not be bitchy, that's really important then in perspective.

Yeah. It just struck me when we were rewatching that, that I was like, Oh, she does get to own that. And and, I would say eight times out of ten. She's right to be angry. (laughs) Oh, my God. Let's take a break for a minute. And and, we'll come back and wrap up. I just want to give us a little break. And um, we'll be right back.

We're back. And we were just, we just kept talking over the break. (laughs)

What break?

What break? um. Because we were tie. All right. So, Melissa our producer, worked on Voyager and next generation.

Melissa Roth 23:30
Not uh, I did Voyager and um...

Enterprise.

... Thank you. Enterprise for Pilot and First Season.

So many Star Treks. So, Voyager and Enterprise, and Robin worked on Voyager.

And Next Gen.

And Next Generation.

Yep. But I know Scott. I know Scott from Quantum Leap. So we were talking about Scott Bakula while we were on break.

We were talking about the objectification of men.

Yes it was quite easy to objectify Mr. Bakula. A triple threat, which not too many people realize. He's an actor, singer, dancer...

Laughs

... I, before Quantum Leap or maybe about the time of Quantum Leap, I saw him in a theater in Hollywood, one of those 99 Seat Theaters.

Equity waiver. Yeah?

Yeah. That he did a musical. God help, I can never remember the name of it. But it was like based on a Film Noir kind of thing. But it was a comedy and a musical and he was fantastic! Oh my gosh!

Triple threat.

Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah. He's amazing. He's great. Always been one of my favorites.

I saw Tom Schneider, before Dukes of Hazzard, in the Atlanta Children's Theater production of Wizard of Oz. He was the Scarecrow and it was the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life. My sister was in the show as a Munchkin. She said, 'follow the yellow brick road, in a little munchkin voice. She was very cute and adorable. I sat in on every one of those rehearsals and watched him kind of, kind of create that, that you know, um Without a Brain, If I Only Had a Brain, thank you. But it was also like, it was watching a Star do something.

Wow.

And I was like, in love with him. I was very young. But it also, I think it's one of the reasons I really fell in love with Theater. Because I remember that moment of sitting in rehearsal after rehearsal after rehearsal, you know doing my homework and reading my books. But watching them put the show together, um from basically the Director's position. Because I was, you know, sitting one row over. Anyway, so there's a sidebar.

Laughs

What makes me think when when Stephanie did the Tempest, she did the Tempest with Anthony Hopkins, of all people. At the Taper...

Wow.

And I was in graduate school, you know, the graduate school my parents made me go to, and I would sit, I would go with her to keep her company because the drive in rush hour out there from the valley is terrible. So I'd go keep her company. And I'd do my homework in the dressing room and listen to the Tempest with Stephanie and Anthony Hopkins on this speaker. So that was my treat.

That's amazing. I love that!

Watch the show go together.

I love that.

All of the backstage stuff. I produced a show called Bend In the Road. I'm gonna do a little shout out for Bend In the Road, the Ann of Green Gables musical. And and we would sell out. We did it at the small theater at the Pasadena Playhouse, Carrie Hamilton, and we would sell out. So I would sit. I loved watching it. But I would sit in the lobby and listen to it. And it was, it was a whole other experience. It was just so, such a beautiful show. My friends wrote it.

All of the backstage stuff.

Oh, and speaking of Scott Bakula and backstage stuff, when Scott started on Quantum Leap... just the sweetest guy in the world...When when they called cut, and they'd go to set up the next scene, Scott would take the gaffers tape and mark the stage. I mean, he was just man on the job, just you know, pitching in and just no attitude at all, you know, just was happy to be there.

How, how did you get on Quantum Leap? Like, how did that, tell us, tell us about Quantum Leap now, because I'm a nerd.

Oh, Quantum Leap. Quantum Leap, I believe I pitched. So I'm trying to think how did I get on staff. I pitched. I wrote one. Or I pitched and they bought the idea, but I didn't write it. But then I was brought on staff because I was over at Universal. I was doing a show called Over My Dead Body with Edward Woodward. So I was, I was brought... Oh, I know what it was. Don Bellisario had a show called Tequila and Bonetti, with Jack Scalia and a Talking Dog.

Oh my god...

And I wrote for that talking dog. (Laughs)

Laughs

And Don, the interesting part... I don't know how many interviews you've done with people talking about Don Bellisario. But Don was such a, is such an interesting character. And I owe so much to Don. And Don was very much about giving women a chance. And I went from the talking dog to Quantum Leap, being the only woman on staff, because they let a woman go. And the other woman was his was, well, they were divorcing. His, the wife he was divorcing at the time. So that wasn't too comfortable. But he brought me on. And it was a very political backstabbing culture. Oh my god! I wanted to quit so many times. And I won't name names, but there was a writer on that staff who verbally abused me. There would have, there would be an action, but these were the days of Anita Hill. That scri, I remember that because we put her in, in one of our kisses of history. So you didn't complain about that stuff. It was just horrible. But Don wanted to give me a chance. And I remember what the strategy was, they kept taking away my assignments. So I couldn't write a script. So it looked like I wasn't doing anything. And then I pitched the Bigamy Episode. And it got taken away. And I told Don. And Don went and straighten things out. And I remember he came into my office, he says, Just do a really good job. And I said, I will. And I guess I did. And so I I survived over there. But oh, wow was that... that was trial by fire. But Don was really good, really fair, treated me really well and took me over when he went on his overall deal to Paramount. I went with him. And unfortunately, there wasn't a show to keep me there. So I moved on. But that was my, that year or two working in the Bellisario shop. Oh, you worked really hard, and his creative process was rather chaotic. (guffaw) So sometimes he wouldn't get to look at something before it was shooting the next day, and you're you know, re-writing like mad. And I remember that I, he and I got along really well. I, I wrote on the dog show, I wrote the Episode that was the New Pilot. Rick Rossovich did the original Pilot. And that didn't work out. And so Jack Scalia came in, and the one that they wrote, they didn't want to use with Jack. So they were going to use my Episode. So Don rewrote it, because it became the new Pilot. And he had his assistant come down to say, you know, Don's gonna take partial credit on this. And I thought, This is no way to handle this. And so I marched down to Don's office and sat down. And I said to him, I just want you to know, I completely understand why you're rewriting it. And I completely, I'm part of the team, and I get it, and I'm fine with it. And I think that set the tone for a relation, he has a, he had a reputation for being impossible to get along with. And I got along with him. It was, he was really good to me again, another really good mentor. But oh, there was a lot of chaos behind the scenes.

He was a huge presence too. I worked with Bellisario on JAG, the first, Pilot and First Season of JAG.

I had just left. I had just, he took me over to Paramount, and I had just left to go do Tech War. And then he got JAG on the air.

Yeah, big presence.

So, what were your experiences with Don?

Well again, he was a big presence. I was, there was another woman in the camera department, but she was always, you know, back at the camera truck. So, I was really the only woman on set. And um, it's a very, it was a very manly show. There was a lot of military people around and I can, I, I can remember Don directing, and like a 7am call. And I had to have the cigar ashtray ready at the, at the Video Village.

At Video Village.

Yeah. So, he and I can't, wha... James Elliot? What was? Who was?

Yeah David James Elliot

David James yeah. They all had to smoke their cigars. And you're in a fake submarine. So, there's like, no room. And like 6am, and you're like, uhhhgg. (choking sound)

Chuckles

But he he was, you know, bi, tall! I mean, he's a big guy. So, he's a big presence. And, you know, there were times where he would lash out. And, you know as a crew, you get really silent. And I was always, you know, be-bopping around, I'm like, 'Hello Hello Hello at the Video Village as the second assistant on that show. And then, you know, when he would get mad, I remember one time he got like... something was happening. It wasn't, it was a bark at us, but it really wasn't us. And, you know, like I, you step back. Right?

Yeah.

And you don't go near him. And he actually said, 'How come you're not hanging around with us today?' And I'm like, Well, Mr. Bellisario, I didn't think you really wanted to be around us too much today. And he's like, 'No, no. Come on down." (guffaw) You know? So he, like I said, he resp, he... well not like I said, but he did, like you said... He respected, at a time where it was not easy to be a woman around set, he respected your presence.

Yes.

And I felt like, I did a good job, and so that's why it was okay to be around him. You know?

Yeah, I think he respected people with good work ethic. And um, if you did your job, you you got a place at that table and that was rare company. And he would have parties at his house. And if you got on that list to, you know, be part of. Larry Manetti, remember one of the actors?

It was was his group from Magnum. See, he kept people, you know, he was loyal to people. He had people from forever. Charles Johnson, the best Line Producer. He was on JAG. I think, was Charles on JAG?

I think when I came in. It was with, it was after, it was like Benky. Who was? I don't know. I, I can only remember like the rock and roll guys. They had, we had like a little rock star scene going on.

(Laughs) Well ...

Jim Benky was, not the producer, but the line producer. So I might be thinking more of line producers.

Your your story of the cigars reminds me of a Remington Steele story where that last Season when it was just Brad Kern and Michael Gleason and me. So the Boys are staying late and I'm going to stay. Right? Because I want to be one of the Boys. And Michael breaks out the vodka and pours shots of vodka. Well, I'm not gonna Not do it, because I have to be one of the boys. I came home and just threw up for hours.

Laughs

(Laughs) Well earned. Well earned.

But yes, Don was definitely a larger-than-life personality, and just a re, really imaginative guy and, and brilliant. And I remember walking across the Universal Lot, because I had to talk to Don, and things would get let, left to the last minute. And I literally pitched him the structure for whichever Episode I was writing. I literally pitched it, while we walked and talked to the Alfred Hitchcock Theater. That's how you got Don's attention. But you needed it. And then the other thing you learned is, if Don didn't like something, Do Not push it through. Do Not argue for it, because he's Never gonna like it. So, you know, it's just a matter of of, figuring these people out. I did well with strong father figures quite clearly. (laughs) I got the pleasure of working with some really great people. That's for sure. And he was one of 'em, like Michael. But yeah, those were, those were interesting times. Those were such great scripts to write because you got to write something totally different every week, different setup. And that's where I first worked with Brooke Shields, because she did the one where she's stranded on the island. It was our our version of of Castaway... Washed Away... whatever that movie was called. Where she's stranded on the island with with Scott. So I got to work with Brooke there. And then I got, I used Brooke in When Calls the Heart. When I was Showrunner on When Calls the Heart, Brooke did a small arc on that. And I have a movie in development right now with her at Netflix! So.

Nice. I'd love to see Brooke on screen again. Yeah!

She did A Castle for Christmas, you know for Netflix last Christmas. So it did really well. And so there's another one now that's being done. So knock on wood that it goes in October.

Well, I was just saying, on earlier episodes, that there has... This this kind of show, the Romantic Comedy Mystery Show has kind of gone away. Except that it's, I realized it's moved over. It's moved over to Hallmark and the Netflix Christmas. It's it, because because Christmas and Romance and Mystery and Romance are all over those Networks. And that's where it's moved to. Which is just sort of interesting, because Iwould, I kept going there's no that! But it's over there on...

Well I think part of it is because there's not as... you can't really justify 'will they, won't they', 'can't they, don't they' as much. Because they would! (laughs)

Laughs

Yes,True!

So, but in a movie you can justify it, because it's a, it's a finite period of time.

Yeah, it took a lot, they, there was a lot of like, Okay, we're gonna break apart. Like there's a lot of fake breaking them apart in some ways. Then bringing them together.

Yes, the old Sam and Dianne from Cheers which was iconic for that.

And now, and on Hallmark they simply don't have sex. We joke that they don't even have genitals, so. (laughs)

mmHmm!

Laughs

A bunch of Ken Dolls.

That's exactly what they are. Oh we stay way away from that! We have a little more leeway in in the wholesome Rom Coms at at Netflix. But at Hallmark, No. We don't want to go there. We didn't go there. And there's an audience for it. And they Love it. It's one of the most loyal audiences, is When Calls the Heart. They have a huge Twitter following. Just huge.

Laughs

It, it is huge. I think romance for everybody, romance for everybody. Everybody loves a little romance.

Yeah!

And again, another strong female show. It's about a woman who becomes a teacher on the frontier. So that's another thing I, I love to write for those strong women characters.

I do too. Oh fans. So we're we're, let's talk about the fans. This show Remington Steele, beloved! Still beloved to this day. People who've never watched the show have heard the name of the show. And, and a huge amount of fan fiction for the shows and for this show, in particular. What do you think that is? What do you think it is that sort of has kept the show resonating for 40 years? Almost 40 years?

That's interesting because, because I've worked on other shows that are so huge, you know, for fan stuff and fan fiction, like Star Trek and Quantum Leap. I mean, it's hard to beat that, and then the Period Pieces see. So to me, Remington doesn't quite fall in that category. But what I would say is, it's just such a unique concept. And again, having this wonderful female character who is as good as her male superior, her mate, you know, she asked to invent him. I think it's just such a positive statement. So many when, I when I I've gotten letters or people have written to me about, you know, Remington Steele, it's usually about the feminist aspect of it. It's usually that Laura Holt is is such a role model. So there's that. And then you have to also look over on the other side of the equation that Pierce was so very charming. And Pierce went on to become James Bond. So I think to be able to watch early Pierce Brosnan is great, you know. It's a, he doesn't, he doesn't talk about it as much. I guess it's so long ago. You know? But you get to see before he was Bond, so I think between what Stephanie did and the fact historically, you get to see Pierce pre-Bond. That's a pretty interesting show, don't you think?

I do. I do. And I do. I did. forget. I did not nod, that you worked on Star Trek, two Star Trek's ,and which are arguably the biggest fanfiction shows. (laughs)

Laughs

It's amazing. People know the shows much better than I do, you know, they'll quote from the show. There was though, a fan, again, you talk about fan loyalty. There's a fan on When Calls the Heart. I paraphrased the, the... I think it's Martin Luther King originally... that bad things happen when good people do nothing. A woman got it tattooed on her arm.

Wow.

So that's, that's fans following a show. (chuckles)

Chuckles

That's fans following a show.

You realize how powerful...

So there you go. So yeah, uh, there are uh, the fan. I, I think there's this connection between the um, Sci-Fi and the Period Pieces. Because they're both out of time? Out of current time. And that they attract such loyal fans. I mean there are people, there's there's a Hearties Convention on When Calls the Heart where the fans flood... they spend thousands of dollars to fly up to the Vancouver area and walk through the sets. I actually did one of those you know, and led some of the tours. And people are brought to tears when you walk them in the, in the um, School House. So there are those moments that, as fluffy as what we do is... and we're not curing Cancer... where you realize that you are doing something really pretty magical for people. Because you're taking them out of their reality and you're giving them something to believe in. And, or at the very least, you're simply distracting them from something that perhaps isn't the happiest time of their life. Or you're inspiring them. But whatever it is, you go to those Conventions and it's pretty incredible.

...the medium is. Yeah.

The medium is. So we uh, we we do... We can't keep talking forever. Because the...

Why not? This is fun!

Super fun. Well, next time, we're gonna have to have some coffee. Do in real life, So we'll have to have you back.

Laughs

And we can talk about women in catsuits.

And how many cat suits the women in Star Trek had to wear before they got to wear less cat suit uniforms.

Laughs

Laughs

Something much more comfortable.

Yes, (Laughing)

Oh. Goodness.

Laughs

This is so, all right. But I do want to, I want to talk about how... Because you've been writing television for a long time.

Yes.

And it's changed. How television gets made. I mean, you were writing in the days of going and pitching a show. And maybe there was a staff but it was usually a pretty baby staff from what I understand. And now, for the most, for many shows, you have a staff. Now maybe not for everybody. I know with Star Trek you still pitch shows. Well, how does it? How has it changed for you?

Yeah, I don't know about the new ones. I mean, there's such proliferation in the Star Trek Universe, I've, I can't, I don't have enough fingers and toes to count. So I haven't kept up. But Star Trek did have an open door policy at the time, to pitch. So we we did take outside pitches. When I started, it was part of the profession that you would make the rounds at the beginning of the Season, and go in and and pitch your wares to these various shows. And they'd buy an Episode here, they buy an Episode there. That's not the way it's done anymore. It's the Staff, the Staff writes all the Episodes, which is good. I mean, again, it, I can argue it both ways. You know, and having run a staff when you're arcing, which we are a lot these days, is we arc the story over the whole Season. And it makes sense to do that in house kinda. But I did like when we'd take outside pitches because you get ideas that you just didn't think of, and even if they weren't right, it would, it would spark your brain to, to think of other ideas. But it's one of the reasons I've gone into Two Hours and I'm really enjoying Two Hours because it reminds me of the old days, and you're not doing it all the time. You're moving from project to project and you're creating original stuff. So that's kind of why I left When Calls the Heart. I did it for three Seasons. And I felt I had learned all that I could, you know, being a showrunner there. And I started to write these movies, and they remind me of the days where he would go and you'd pitch an idea, you know, and it keeps you on your game. I mean, you have to be good. You can't sit back and just go, Oh yeah, I'm gonna write Episode Five, and I'm gonna write Episode Nine. Now, it's all up to you, you know, so you have to go in and pitch. And on Princess Switch, which we did for Netflix, and there were three of 'em. That was a Spec Script. That was the company that I did um, When Calls the Heart for, when I said, I didn't want to come back and do another Season, the head of the company, Brad Krevoy said, well, then you're going to write a two hour for me. And we were out to lunch. And I went to the bathroom and came back. And I said, because he said he could always sell, you know, a royal story. And I said well, what about Prince and the Pauper, but we do it again with women? And he said, great idea, I can sell that. And so I wrote that. He paid me but he had not set it up. And then they read it at Netflix, and they bought it. So that's like the old days of of Episodic Pitching. So you can find it in Two Hours now, but not on Series.

Not on Series. Well, okay, so Three came out last November.

Yes, it did.

OK! Very, very successful. Is there a Fourth coming? Can you talk about if there's a Fourth coming?

You know, it's not on the Boards right now, I'd say never say never. But it is huge for Vanessa to do a movie like that, in terms of the effort that it takes. If you think about, she is playing in this last two, she plays three characters. So she's in almost every scene and its major wardrobe and hair change. Major. And then in the scenes where the three characters appear together, she has to do those scenes again and again and again. And she's acting off of the Doubles that we have. So it's such a huge technical acting job. I think she needs a break. And then it's a question of what idea would we want to do. I mean, we def, we we deliberately sidestepped having everybody have a baby in this, in the Third because it's, you know, they fall in love, they get married, they have a baby. And I said, I didn't want to write it. And I don't think she wanted to play it. So we did something, we did a caper in the third one with a romance with the the bad girl.

The bad girl. Yes.

Which is her favorite character. And that was part of doing a third she said, I only want to do it if it features that character. And yet the fans love Stacy, the the American character. They identify. It's the most she says, it's the most like what she played in High School Musical. It's for her Gabrielle character, and that's why people love it. But she loves playing the bad girl. So I think we're gonna give it a rest at least, and then we'll see. It's it's wonderful because now Netflix has a Franchise and then 'IP', and they can do with it whatever they want. They own it. And you know, they're new to the game. They're not Disney. So now they've got a property, they can do whatever they want with it. So that's good.

Well, I'm just saying I think I think Vanessa Hudgens needs a musical after Tick Tick Boom. Like of her own.

Laughs

So you better get on that.

And we all love musicals. Maybe she'll do it with Scott Bakula. (guffaw)

Um, okay. There it is. We just want a little nod.

You have spoken. This is happening!

Oh yay...

Laughs...

Laughs

You're writing it. We just need a little shout out on 80s TV Ladies.

That's right.

Laughs

We don't need anything else. That is fantastic. Well, so what is next for you? What are you working on?

Well, I've got the, I have a movie right now. We're waiting to see what's going to happen with it over at Paramount, (Awesomeness?), Nickelodeon, which I wrote with Marlise Boland, who's been a friend of mine for, hmmmm, decades. And Marlise actually was the first Latina Miss California runner-up to Miss America. So she has some interesting stories to tell. Anyway, we collaborated on this one, and so we want to see what happens there. And then I've got the movie with Brooke Shields. It's supposed to go in October. And I'm writing one more now and we'll we'll see what happens. But yeah, it's it's two hour movies for me right now. I'm having a blast!

That is fantastic. Okay are, do we, do have another question, Sharon? Because I think we gotta go to Three Questions.

I am good, but I mean for now, because there's so much more.

We wrap up with Three Questions. We're gonna have you back on. We're gonna have you and Stephanie back on if we can, if you will come back and join us again. Because there's clearly a lot more conversation to be had. But yes, I said we wouldn't keep you all day. (guffaw)

Laughs

Alright, so. I think you've already answered one of these three questions at least. What's the 80s Ladies TV Show or regular 80s TV Show that resonated with you back in the day? Other than Remington Steele.

Ooo, because I was gonna say I just so lived and breathed it. And I'm probably forgetting ones. I mean, I'm gonna forget probably important ones. But um, I loved Moonlighting. I mean, I don't know if ah, it's so close to Remington but that's Glenn Gordon Caron who of course, worked for Michael on Remington before he created Moonlighting. But I loved Cybill Shepherd and Bruce Willis. We all knew he was going to be a big star from the get go. You know. So I love that. I'm trying to think of the Comedies of that, those the days, but I can't remember them. So.

Golden Girls, It's a Living.

Murphy Brown.

Murphy Brown. Oh, yes. Oh, yes! Brilliant show! Candice Bergen! Loved Murphy Brown. Scott Bakula was on Murphy Brown, too.

Scott Bakula was on Murphy Brown! She was, he was like her boyfriend for a little while.

Yeeeees! (laughs)

It's such a small world. Six degrees of separation. But I loved her character. I so associated with her character, identified with her character with never getting an assistant that worked out. Having it every week.

Laughs

Yeah, that was a brilliant show.

That was very funny. Okay. And then what Current TV Shows, Ladies driven TV shows if possible? But they don't have to be. What your your What are you watching?

Oh, well, you know, now, you catch things on on reruns and stuff. I binge watched Silicon Valley because I worked there. So I binge watched it. And I loved it! I've watched it so many times. I think it's so funny. The Good Place, I think is just so clever. I love that. And of course because of the action adventure fantasy stuff, the Umbrella Academy. I got hooked on that. There's so much to watch. If you have any recommendations, please tell me because you don't know too. There's so many outlets. The Great, you know the one about Catherine the Great. Have you seen that on Hulu?

I've I've seen of it. I haven't seen it yet.

Oh, it's good. I think it's good.

There really is too much TV...

... to watch all the things that I want to watch, let alone trying to keep up on the things that I am watching. It's, it's a, it's a great problem to have, I suppose.

I know

I know. And documentaries! You can watch documentaries all day and learn all sorts of things.

There's so many brilliant Documentaries out. It's it's really something that Streaming has, I think helped. And I appreciate the... clearly they do well and audiences love them. But it's it's nice to see Documentaries.

Yes. And also the other thing Streamers do well is they bring these other shows back. Like I didn't watch Gilmore Girls when it was originally on, and now I watched the whole thing and I love that show. So yeah, it's, there's such richness out there. You know, there's just always something to watch.

Have you seen The Marvelous Mrs Maisel on Prime Video?

I can't get into it. (laughs)

Ah! Interesting. Interesting.

I don't know why but I just...

Everything's not for everybody, as I always like to say.

No, and everybody thinks it's (brilliant?). I know. I know. I have to try it again. You knowhow that goes.

There are things that, that that other people have told me that that are brilliant and I have this, have a similar reaction. It's just not for me. You know, however good it may be. It's not for me,

Right.

For instance, Handmaid's Tale. I cannot watch that. It's not for me.

I haven't tried. I, I. Have you seen The Boys?

I love The Boys! (Laughs)

Fabulous! That's interest, that's a show I went, Oh! I wish I had thought of that idea! That's such a good idea. So yeah, there's there's... It's a candy shop. I don't know what I'd do if my, I have a daughter, but she's 25. But if I had a little kid to try to keep them from watching TV right now, when there's so much on. I don't know how you do it. And then the problem is, of course on their Laptop, they can watch whenever. You know?

Right. You know.

Whenever, I thought you were telling me... What was the show, Susan that you couldn't watch when you were young?

Three's Company. This company caught your?

I caught my daughter was watching like one night. And she is into vintage everything, or she was. And I caught her watching, I said give me that computer. It's like midnight. She's watching The Golden Girls.

Laughs

That show was great. We are going to cover that show on the podcast eventually. And at least the Pilot holds up because I took a look at the Pilot. And.

Laughs

You can ask, Stephanie worked with Rue and Stephanie worked with Betty so you should ask her.

I will. She's worked with everybody! It's so impressive. We were like, Oh my god. She worked with Jimmy Stewart. She worked Charlton Heston. She worked with Ed Asner. She has worked with an awful lot of amazing, amazing actors.

And the Steeles with her Dad were really sweet.

Yes, I did. The episodes with her Dad were really wonderful.

He was a wonderful guy. He just was such a gentleman. When we were kids, he'd pull up so she, you know, he dropped her off at our house. Because she'd come over for whatever. They call them playdates now, but. Her father would pull up in the 1935 Bentley. Now, it just is gorgeous antique car, he was just such a, he was bigger than life. You know? Nice, man.

That is amazing. I think you answered this about four times. But our last third question. Our last Three Questions is... What's the most sort of television moment, action hero moment, that you've experienced real, in real life? And you answered it, like three times.

Really?

Because you talked about you and Stephanie being on the set together. You talked about the time when you were... right at the top of the show. We've talked about so much. (laughs)

Well, what is it? What would you?

(laughs) Well,

I don't know, I doubt I.. You mean, we're life imitates art?

Yeah. Or one of those moments where your like, This should be in a movie.

Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I know, one of the biggest mome... Do you know? I, I actually got on an airplane in, during COVID this year. My husband and I flew to New York to actually see the billboard for Princess Switch Three. It was, it was so surreal that there, that the. something that I wrote that I thought up in the bathroom, you know, to pitch to my boss had a billboard on Time Square. I had to go see it.

That's fantastic.

So that was, that was a, one of the surreal moments, not exactly what you asked. But that was one of the moments.

It was the other air, it was the other airplane moment that you told us about.

Oh! Yeah.

That was very, that I was like, Oh! She's answering the television moment. The like moment where they were life. You're like, Wait. My life I did... I'm not doing what I want to do. Because I just had. I would, that's a terrifying experience.

It is. But it changed my life, and here I am talking to you lovely people. And all these years later, and so grateful for what I did and grateful for your interest in in the shows that I worked on. And I'm just so blessed to be a part of it all.

Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your like wonderful stories and your spirit. And I I'm just really thrilled that I got to meet you at least through Zoom and Radio or Podcasting. It's just been fantastic to have you on the show.

You've been amazing. And hearing about your life and your experiences has just been so wonderful this morning. Thank you so much!

Well thank you for having me. I so enjoyed talking and we have to get our cup of coffee and just have girls coffee and talk about the things we can't talk about on the podcast.

Laughs. Yes please.

I would love that!

I love it. I love it. Oh my god, it's so great. I hope we get to see you again over coffee and have you back on the show.

Lovely to meet all three of you! It's been so much fun to catch up on these stories. Have fun with Stephanie. This is gonna be funny to see how many of our stories overlap.

I can't wait. It's gonna be like match game or what is it Dating Game.

Newlywed. (Laughs)

Yeah, lovely. Thank you so much. Now I have to go work.

Okay.

Go work, thank you!

Have a good one.

Write like the wind.

(Laughs) Bye!

For our audio-ography today, I want to shout out the fans of this show and especially the fans who have written and love fan fiction. For fan fiction, for both this and pretty much any other TV show you want, you can go to fanfiction.net or the website ArchiveOfOurOwn.org. archive of our own.org. That's where you can find fan fiction for almost any television show that's ever existed. The book I would like to recommend is a book that is not easy to track down. It is the only book that I know that was written and published about Remington Steele. I had to get my copy from Germany. It is called Steele Loved After All These Years: A Remington Steele Retrospective written by Judith A. Moose. And she's also written about Silver Spoons. So I don't know, I think she might be a genius.

We want to shout out some of our very own 80s TV Ladies fans, including Marie K, who wrote to us through the website. She says most of the show's writers, especially in the early seasons were men. And while they did a great job constructing a dynamic real heroine. I've always wondered if the show would have built a different character had the writing been shaped by a woman instead. Thanks for the comment, Marie. And that's an important question to ask about this show and all the shows we're looking at.

Yes, I think that we are you know, questioning that ourselves. When were women brought on? How would they have shaped the future or the past? So Jessica B from our Facebook page had this really wonderful comment on the power of this show. And and I think in some ways the TV shows from the 80s, and TV shows in general. She says, There's power in beauty, sweetness, escapism and aspirational storytelling. In a society deeply saturated with realism, grit, and agenda driven content, Remington Steele stands out as a reminder that constant dark and sardonic isn't so real. Remington Steele is a flavour of TV many have forgotten, never experienced or simply find too odd to understand today. The show reminds us to enjoy the beautiful, the slapstick, and the drama of life. It shows us main characters acting with kindness to help others. For that Remington Steele stands as a good show that makes audiences think and want to take on some adventures of their own.

Sharon Johnson 1:00:59
That's such a great...

Susan Lambert Hatem 1:01:00
I thought it was such a I mean uh...

...there's more to that comment. I had to truncate it, because otherwise she has her own podcast.

Yeah! So great

Laughs

But otherwise, that was a really lovely comment. Jessa Thank you.

And an over the pond shout out to Bizzy Lizzy 1605, for giving us five stars on Apple podcast and our first international review. She says, Great host, cool guests.

That's us.

Yee!

The Yee part is us... Lots of interesting conversation and a dash of nostalgia. It's a great cocktail. As a UK listener, I'm not familiar with some of the shows, but I'm learning as I listen. If you want a snapshot of 80s sociology and attitudes, this is it! Loads of fun stuff too. Well, thank you Busy Lizzy for reaching out to us from way over across the pond. We hope you continue to enjoy and continue to listen and continue to check out some of the shows that we're going to be talking about.

Yee!

Thank you! Top of the morning to you. I'm trying to be my UK. (busts out laughing)

Laughs.

I don't, I don't. I think I'm gonna have to practice to get a UK accent going.

Laughs

This is the problem of not being performers and running a podcast. Find out more about us on the website. 80sTVLadies.com. That's eight zero s TV la di es.com.

Let us know if you're liking this podcast. Giving us a shout out on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc really helps a lot.

We hope you'll join us for the next Episode where we continue our exploration of Remington Steele. And we have an incredible interview with the amazing actress Stephanie Zimbalist who created the character of Laura Holt. Please send us your questions for Stephanie, we want to hear from you. Send us all your questions. What Show should we cover? What actresses? Who should we get on the show?

We hope 80s TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch. All of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the 21st century.

See you next time, Sharon.

Bye!

Episode 109: “Writing Remington Steele with Robin Bernheim – Part Two”

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